Atari Jaguar 2 | Jaguar II aka Midsummer

I thought in addition to the MIRAI thread, it would also be good to have a thread on the unreleased Atari Jaguar 2 | Jaguar II.


Jaguar 2 was codenamed 'Midsummer' and-or, the whole, entire Jaguar 2 chipset was named Midsummer.


the entire Midsummer | Jaguar 2 chipset was never completed. only parts of it were.

the first chip was complete. this was the chip named 'Oberon'.

some articles and webpages I have read say that the Jaguar 2 | Midsummer chipset was basicly two chips. 'Oberon' and 'Puck' (heh, the whole shakespear thing is nice, i guess) however, after reading more, it seems that the second chip, which was supposedly not completed, was named 'Titania'. or maybe, 'Theseus'. so far I have found these three names for Jaguar 2's uncompleted 2nd major chip: Puck, Titania, Theseus. If someone could set the record straight on that discrepancy, it would be nice, lol.


so the completed Jaguar 2 | Midsummer would consist of two major chips:
'Oberon' and 'Puck' or 'Oberon' and 'Titania' or 'Oberon' and 'Theseus'.


performance of Jaguar 2 was expected to be 2 to 4 times faster | better than Playstation1. release was slated for ~1996, but probably would've been pushed to 1997. both of these factors mean that Midsummer | Jaguar 2 would be competing head to head with the 3DO M2 -probably its closest rival in terms of power & techology, while still fighting the Saturn, PS1, N64, and later in Jaguar 2's lifecycle, the Dreamcast.

it is clear that Jaguar 2 was *not* built to take on the Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube or Xbox. that would have been the job of Jag 3 or Jag 4 (lol!). the Jaguar 2 was built to combat the PS1, N64 and probably 3DO M2.



sitting next to the smaller original Jaguar, here is what some say is a mock-up of Jaguar 2



however the above is NOT a mock-up of the next-gen Jaguar 2, but actually, the 'JagDuo', a combined Jaguar 1 with Jaguar CD-ROM. JagDuo was often referred to as Jaguar 2 and sometimes Jaguar 3


edits:

- you might recall in Next Generation and probably EDGE magazines, as well as perhaps other magazines and on the internet, that Atari was working on Jaguar 2 and Jaguar 3. that referrence to Jag 2 and Jag 3 were no doubt the Jag Duo and Midsummer (real Jag 2) respectively. the Jag 2 that Atari was initially talking about in 1995 was not the real Jag 2, but the combined Jag1+CD-ROM. aka the Jag Duo. the Jag 3 would have been their real next-gen hardware: the real Jaguar 2 aka Midsummer.

thus:

-Jaguar 3 = Midsummer = the true Jaguar 2

-that other 'Jaguar 2' or 'Jaguar II', when you *both* Jag 2/II and Jag 3/III mentioned, obviously means the combined original Jaguar and CD-ROM (Jag Duo)

-to further confuse matters, on the web and probably in magazines, you will sometimes see the Jaguar CD addon called Jaguar 2, and the combined all-in-one JagDuo called Jaguar 3! totally insane.


I'll try to break it down once and for all:

Jaguar: limited release in 1993. nationwide release in 1994. based on Flare 2 techology. the successor to the Flare One which was the basis of the Konix Multi System and *might* have also been the basis for the 16-bit to 32-Bit Panther

Jaguar CD: the seperate CD-ROM addon for Jaguar. looks like a toilet seat when attached to the main console. sometimes referred to (idiotically) as the Jaguar 2.

JagDuo: the combined all-in-one Jaguar and CD-ROM. had an awesome looking exterior. *often* called the 'Jaguar 2' and unbelivably, *sometimes* even called the 'Jaguar 3'. (wtf!)

Jaguar 2 aka Midsummer: this is the REAL next-generation Jaguar that was not released and not even finished. Atari usually called Midsummer (which was the true next-gen Jaguar) the 'Jaguar 3'. ....and Atari *really* confused the f**k out of people when they called the JagCD addon the "Jaguar 2" and called the JagDuo the "Jaguar III". Atari *usually* called the JagDuo the 'Jaguar II | 2" and the totally new system, the 'Jaguar 3 | III", resulting in only 'moderate' confusion.


so that means Jaguar 2 can be confused into three things: Jag CD, JagDuo or Midsummer (the true Jaguar 2)

Jaguar 3 can be confused into two things: JagDuo or Midsummer (the real Jag 2)

what about Jaguar 4 you ask? thank God Atari didn't get that far (lol) or they would have confused even the brightest mathematicians as to what it actually was.






So if Atari was still around making consoles today, we would all be playing something that Atari would have called "Jaguar 4" or "Jaguar 5" but would really only be the Jaguar 3.... which would be competing with PS2-Cube-Xbox, all the while waiting for a 'next-gen' Atari console that Atari would call "Jag 5" or "Jag 6" but would really be Jag 4... something that we would be talking about along with the upcoming Playstation3, Xbox Next and Revolution. man, I like the Atari cat names but, if they'd have survived, they should have dropped Jaguar names and used 'Cougar' 'Leopard' 'Bobcat' (for a new handheld!) 'Lion' and 'Tiger'.


3DO did almost exactly the same thing. besides the ill-fated M2, 3DO was working on MX (MX = M2++) and if not actually developing or R&Ding them, at least had plans for an M3 and an M4. the fact that 3DO sold off the M2 to Matsushita for $100 mil did not prevent 3DO from developing M3 and M4. I remember reading that bit in NG magazine.



http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/jaguarduo.htm

note: this thread is a work in progress. I posted it now, but have alot to add to it from info I am gathering from around the universe....ahem...i mean the web.

 

Wow, wherever you find this stuff, keep it up. :smt023

 

I thought it was common knowledge that that thing was a jag duo.

Theres tons of interesting Atari stuff out there...for two reasons I'd guess...

1. It's an american company, and employees have sticky fingers...

2. The whole company was sold off...and with that lots of intersting things that we were never meant to see.

Kinda makes me want to see Nintendo and Sega go out of business....:smt096

 

yeah, that thing is definitally a Jag Duo | Jaguar Duo ..not Jaguar 2.

so Jag Duo is therefore based on first-gen Jaguar tech.. much like the TurboDuo was the same guts from the original PC Engine | TurboGrafx, plus CD-ROM
(plus more memory)


Jag Duo looks pretty damn cool though. no wonder people sometimes say it was the shell for Jaguar 2.

 

another list of Jaguar 2's capability

http://justclaws.atari.org/altatari/dxhware.htm

I don't take this above article too seriously though, as it looks like it is not 100% accurate, and semi-amiturish ... will be posting better, most likely much more authentic info on Jaguar 2 soon....nothing new or earthshaking, just stuff that's been around on the web for a good long while....




okay here we go, somewhat better - a short Jaguar history and some Jag 2 info:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/deomaki/html/jaguar/jaguar.htm
(this is where i found the name 'Theseus' for the second main Jag2 chip, which is most often called 'Puck' and sometimes called 'Titania')

here's another good one. short but probably accurate:

http://www.myatari.net/issues/apr2001/jag_faq3.htm

(link within that quote is dead)
.

 

even though this will not be the last post in this Jaguar 2 ~ Midsummer thread, this might be the peak. It will probably have some of the most accurate info that there is on Jaguar 2, what was completed of Jag 2, anyway.

first an interview with John Mathieson.
( i dunno exact who he is, being the idiot that i am, but he seems to be very central to Jaguar and Jaguar 2)

http://www.chez.com/toxicmag/real/articles/mathieson.htm

and for desert we have the "Midsummer Technical Reference Manual" PDF
http://www.chez.com/toxicmag/real/archives/MidsummerTechRefVersion6.zip

 

http://www.atariage.com/Jaguar/faq/?SystemID=JAGUAR

the specs seem about right from what I recall seeing on the web a few years ago...but they didn't get the right names of the chips. and Jaguar 2 had 4 MB of RAM with a possibility of 8 MB ....remember the 3DO M2 was upgraded from 4 MB to 6 MB to finally 8 MB....and some M2 configurations: arcade(?) industrial use boxes, had 16 MB.


more, later after work.

 

Some nice info there... but c'mon dude, research a bit more!

John Mathieson set up a company in 1986 in the UK (Cambridge if you want to be precise - home of the speccy!) with Martin Brennan. They were ex-Sinclair employees. Its name? Flare. They designed a processor, which they showed to Atari. They liked it, and commisioned them to make a games machine, dubbed Panther. Eventually, this was scrapped, as the joint efforts between Atari and Flare on a new processor, the Flare II, were progressing quicker than expected. They decided to concentrate on this, and thus the Jaguar was born.

Incidentally, the Flare design went into the Konix Multisystem back over here. However, Konix were increasingly demanding of Flare, and the team was struggling to compress their design into a small chip. Konix also wanted a 16 bit processor, as opposed to this 8 bit processor, and wanted more out of the hardware than it could handle. This probably contributed to the failiure of the Multisystem.

So, who is John Mathieson? Well, he's one of the inventors of the Tom and Jerry chipsets in the Jaguar. Yeah, he is in effect the brains behind the Jag.

*edit* I should point out - I'm not 100% sure of the names of the chips. Flare II was actually a company set up to produce the new chips, I believe.

 

I remember seeing pictures of a box which apparently contained Jag 2, being backwards-compatible with the original Jaguar (it played Tempest 2000, for instance). On the Atari History Museum if memory serves, their page on it seems to be down though. That's certainly the "Duo" mockup that you've got pictures of, anyway - there's no cart slot, and Jaguar 2 was definitely going to be backwards-compatible.

Anyone else find it funny that the chips proposed for Jaguar 2 were named after characters from Midsummer Night's Dream ^_^

 

hehe, you mean I am *not* doing enough research? for me, this is sort of a learning experience for me. learning as I go. and as I said, this thread is a work in progress


Konix Multi System(s!)
I know a little tiny bit about the Konix Multi System. it would have been, I think, the first 16-bit videogame console designed outside of Japan. well, assuming it was in the works before the Panther. yet it seems the Panther was originally based on the same core technology as Konix. the Flare One | Flare I. like you said, one doesn't know if that was the actual name of the chipset, the company or both. I remember reading that the Konix Multi System was started in 1988. and by late 1989 or early 1990, they had doubled the RAM from 128K to 256K. unless I am mistaken.

Incidentally, there was a second unreleased Konix system, a 32-bit system, in the early to mid 1990s. the TXE MultiSystem. it's listed here:
http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=E_JY3.1650$li5.81776@wagner.videotron.net&output=gplain
I forgot what the ties were to Konix or Flare, etc. next to nothing is known about this machine. it was mentioned in GameFan. I think a picture was shown of the unit. don't have the issue anymore.

for now, here are the only other mentionings of it that I could find online:

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=2qiv40$dvk@ulowell.uml.edu



Nintendo bought KONIX and their TXE-32Bit system. So could it be that this
is the new 180$ game-machine?

Im not sure if it is the Konix system or not but it said that was a 32
bit virtual reallity system without headset, also this is not Project
Reality or a replacement this is just an additional system that Nintendo
wants to bring out.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.nintendo/msg/50e997896dd7acd3?dmode=source

I don't know if Nintendo actually bought Konix and their TXE MultiSystem or what, and if so, if that hadware became the basis for the Virtual Boy (!) or something Nintendo never brought out. wouldn't be all that surprising.

edit: yahoo search yielded this
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=TXE+konix&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt
no real info though.


Panther
http://www.atari-computermuseum.de/pics/prototypen/panther.jpg
http://www.ntrautanen.fi/marko/sao/ukk/images/panther.jpg
http://www.atari-computermuseum.de/pics/prototypen/panther.gif
http://www.atari-computermuseum.de/pics/prototypen/pantherside.gif


Now as far as I know, the Panther started out as a 16-bit system, then was re-announced as a 32-bit system. if Panther had come out as a 32-bitter, it might have been the first 32-bit console, if it had made it out in 1991, before the Fujitsu FM Towns Marty. but that's unlikely for at least two reasons that I can think of: even as a '32-bit' console, the Panther would've probably had the 68000 as its primary brain. not true 32-bit but 16/32-bit. the FM Towns used 386 and later 486 CPU which were both true 32-bit processors. not that it really matters.

what I find astonishing, and most likely too good to be true, are some of Panther's specs. especially like 65,535 sprites on screen (!!) thats two orders of magnitude beyond NeoGeo (380 sprites) and one order of magnitude beyond Sega's System32 board (8,000 sprites). this is Saturn territory. I don't believe Panther was THAT powerful. but what do I know.

edit:

http://www.zhell.co.uk/panther.html ahh, now that is much, much more reasonable and believable. closer to the sprite capabilities of Sega's 16-bit System24 board which can handle 2000 sprites.

 

moving back to Jaguar II|2 ~ Midsummer aka Jaguar 3


we have pictures labled

The 'Jaguar II' prototype

'This is the 'Jaguar II' prototype PCB. You'll notice, there is a second DRAM-bank on the board; but it's empty...'



'These are the expansion-ports of the 'Jaguar II'. What is / was the new expansion-bus for?'

[ similar looking set of Jaguar II specs ]
http://mitglied.lycos.de/deomaki/html/jaguar/jaguar2.htm

here we have Sam Tramiel carrying a not-actually-Jaguar2 'JagDuo' at the 1995 Summer CES in Chicago



more pictures of the...man-I-wish-I-was-the-real-Jag2-but-I'm-just-a-Jag2wannabe-sigh-I-am only-Jag1-plus-JagCD-in-a-cool-looking-case-my-name-is-really-JagDuo

 

The design is very cool indeed.

 

now we get back to the real Jaguar 2 again, aka "Jaguar 3" aka Midsummer

another prototype Jaguar 2 board, called of all things 'COBWEB'

'Atari Jaguar 2 (COBWEB) Unreleased Prototype'

'Atari Jaguar 2(COBWEB)'

quote:
__________________________________________________________________
"This is what makes Atari so interesting, so many unreleased products that could have saved their @rse!

The above board is (currently) non-working, but I'm in the delicate process of trying to (revive) the bad boy!
So far I've seen 2 case designs for the JagDuo (one black, one grey , both various in size) This board is huge!
Being in the prototype stages, I suppose you would expect that. This black case seems perfect for the Jaguar2



I know the case is the JagDuo case, but being the JagDuo wasn't going to be released and that the Jaguar2
didn't have a case design yet, this would have been a nice choice to use!
__________________________________________________________________

A Start with Jaguar 2 Memory...

"As you can see, there is supposed to be a total of 8MB of RAM for the Jaguar 2. Using the same tired memory
from the original Jaguar, this is to keep compaility for the backward-use of Jaguar.

It would only make since for Atari to use the minimal amount of needed memory until finalizing produciton to
save on production costs (even if it is only a few bucks, you know how Atari was)"

Jaguar 2 Connections


"I will call this the (back-side) of the Jaguar 2. As normal, you have the RF lead, DSP, A/V and PSU, but
additional to all that is an extra expansion port that would allow for external memory/cpu. It's really hard
telling what Atari was thinking for this port, except for upgradability and future add-ons (as always)"

The first console to have jumpers? ;-) (early early prototype stages, go figure)

"Above you can see the jumper selections for the Jaguar 2. The top jumper is a 75Mhz selector from what I can
gather. Along with all my researching, I've seen the Jaguar 2 specs with the TOM II chip running at 75Mhz
with 4MB of on-board RAM.

The left jumper is to select from Jaguar 1 to Jaguar 2 (The lower (daughterboard) has the original crystal
on the Jaguar 1, to run at a normal speed. The top crystal is 32mhz (thus making Project Overcock an interest
to me) and it ties in with the far right jumper in some instance. (75Mhz)

It's really hard to tell if the crystal on-board is there for the Jerry II at all times or the selector will jump from
26mhz to 32mhz and the TOM II to 75Mhz, it's all confusing to me still, as there are various things it can be for.

As soon as I get the prowler on the run, I'll update this section accordingly."

Jaguar CD Chip
http://jagcube.atari.org/jaguar2cdchip.jpg
"Also, the Orbit chip that can be found in the Jaguar CD is on the Jaguar 2 board. The power connections are
the same (seen above, JP1 - JP6) but there are 2 connectable rows of pins (10 on 2 lines, 20 lines) of course
for the data from the drive. I'm not sure if I'll ever mess with getting a Jaguar CD to hook up and work on it
but I guess that depends on if I can actually get the unit to power up first."

Speed again..
http://jagcube.atari.org/jaguardaughterboard.jpg
"Again, a better look at the shitty daughterboard and resistors along with the 32mhz crystal I was talking about
earlier. Guess they haven't figured a way out to make it software - switchable (which is a good thing really, because hard telling if it would have ever seen the performance of the Jaguar 2 if that was the case)"

The 68000 (ehhh...)
http://jagcube.atari.org/mc6800016mhz.jpg
"Ok, this is where I start to question the Jaguar 2 FAQ again.... it's supposed to be a 68EC020, ummm...
Anyhow, again, Atari could have been playing around with chips as to what they should use or not....
besides, it's not the heart of the system, either way you look at it (though it seems a lot of people view it
that way)"

The TOM-II (Ripping Speed)

"Yep! That's what I said! (That's the TomII?) Looks like Felix chip to me! Ahh, kinda scarry actually, but again,
Atari was probably using what they had and something the could load code onto easy.

The numbers are marked out by marker (no luck of seeing what it is, except for Toshiba of course)

The pins were bent straight to hell when I got this unit, took me a few hours to get them just right and seat
the chip (as far as it will go)"

TomII with Heatsink, Yeah, I should use a fan maybe... we'll see though...
http://jagcube.atari.org/tom2heatsink.jpg

Jaguar 2 Reset Switch
http://jagcube.atari.org/jag2reset.jpg
The Updates...
Hope everyone has enjoyed the detailed pics I've put up so far!
Check back for updates as I'll be posting them as progress is made! -//JagCube//Clint Thompson"
_________________________________________________________________

...unquote...

unless I am mistaken, the 'Tom II' chip is 'Oberon', the first of Jaguar 2's main chips which was completed.... ...unlike 'Puck' aka 'Thesus' aka 'Titania', which I think was the GPU that pushed texture mapped polygons, probably not unlike the RCP in Nintendo64 or the BDA (BullDogASIC) in 3DO M2, or the chip called 'GPU' in PS1|PSOne or the PowerVR2DC aka CLX2 in Dreamcast.

ahem.... anyway, it would have been awesome to see a fully completed
'real Jaguar 2' (tm) with finished Midsummer chipset and a case that hopefully would've looked as cool as that of JagDuo's, if not cooler.

I would have loved to see the true Jaguar 2 go up against arch-rival 3DO M2 as well as the Saturn, but this time, Saturn is supercharged with its 3D upgrade cartridge (based on either PowerVR1 or Lockheed Martin Real3D chipset *plus* PowerPC CPU), as well as the proposed (or rumored) PowerVR1 upgrade card for the NEC PC-FX (if not, then at least the unwatered-down NEC IronMan aka Project Tetsujin...for those that don't know, the PC-FX was based somewhat on IronMan | Tetsujin but the PC-FX didn't get Ironman's|Tetsujin's polygon capabilities, or so i heard).

If Jaguar 2 became a real sucess in 96-97...3DO quickly gets 'MX'
the 'M2-on-steroids' out of their R&D labs and released by '98 with DVD! Atari counters with talk of Jaguar 4 (actually Jag 3!) and then Sega beats them ALL again with a Lockheed Martin Real3D or PowerVR2 powered console named Katana, instead of that fruity name the real one got!.....

....and Sony freaks out, never introducing their g*d d*mn f**king Playstation2

eh...nevermind my ramblings! lol

 

This is the most amazing information on a system that never came out... Now if i can just buy a fucking JAg i been looking and wanting to buy one for weeks. But mofos want to much for them.. dude.. i was like this about the m2 and Crystal dreams for the n64

 

keep in mind, none of this is really new infomation. it's all 3 to 10 year old info. I'm just attempting to collect it in one spot for easy consumption, while injecting some of my own speculation.

 

your right.. it is just nice to have all of it in one spot.. but remember this was the go go 90's where Vp's and Ceo's fire everyone and give themselves raises and watch their stock. Dude it wasn't going to come out because they were to busy tring to sell off atari. I believe during proto stage they where already laying off staff.

 

Thanks for the info GigaDrive. Great Topic!

 

my pleasure Johnny. it's been fun as well as interesting for me, looking into Atari's various Jaguar configurations, especially Jaguar's sucessor Midsummer, as well as Jaguar's history and the systems that were in development before Jaguar.

 

BREAKING NEWS: John Hardie of the National Video Game Museum & Scott "Jagmod" Walters at the FB group Jaguar Sector III posted pics of a unpopulated PCB of the Atari Jaguar Duo & a unpopulated PCB of the Atari Jaguar II. Source :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/jaguarsector/

 

I don't have an FB account, meaning that I can't see it!