Does your Japanese still suck?

Anyone else in Japan simply unable to progress in Japanese? I'm taking classes again and it just reinforces the fact that my brain simply doesn't have whatever processing capability that's required for speaking Japanese. The sounds and the meaning have no attachment to each other and grammar points are forgotten within minutes of learning them, or they get easily confused when I move to the next grammar point.

And here's the weird thing.... I took Spanish for a couple of years when I was in high school. That was 20 years ago. For some odd reason my brain is able to pull up Spanish and accidentally insert the vocabulary into Japanese sentences. I went to the store and asked, "Sumimasen, aceite ha doko desu ka?" Now why is it that I can remember the Spanish word for "oil" 20 years after the fact but I can't remember the Japanese word even though it's been told to me a hundred times since I moved to Japan? I'll often throw in "pero" (but) or "abierto" (open) without even realizing it. It makes no sense at all.

I'm literally getting to the point where my kanji ability is about to eclipse my speaking ability. In class it's easier for me to insert kanji for smaller words like "child" or "what" than it is to try to remember the hiragana. It's just completely ass-backwards.

 

Hmm... it seems that because of the frustration from learning you've set up a mental block for yourself. The only way to effectively memorize a word or new grammar is to put it into a real life context. Ideally the classes you take should have exercises and role plays where such context is created. Otherwise you have to imagine yourself using it and thus motivate yourself to retain the language items.

For words that just don't want to stick, you need to make an effort and consciously use them a couple of times until they are part of your active vocabulary. Make a shopping list in Japanese and write abura for oil, etc. Think about it on the way to the shop ("Should I get rapeseed abura or olive abura?"*), try to identify abura on the label and... you get the idea.

*I know that would be oriibu oiru, but here it serves the purpose.

 

All I can do is ask how you are and where the bathroom is

 

Well there's a word you can remember in japanese, "pan" which means bread in both japanese and spanish. random.:cur_sonic:

 

Language learning in general has one golden rule: Context is king!

Learning grammar rules or vocabulary by rote will only frustrate you, but if you see them in context it gets infinitely easier. Try to get to the point where you just use the right form because it feels right.

 

Here is another trick: try to use the word in the most absurd context your brain can come up with. The more graphic, the better -> Our brain thinks in pictures.

 

Eric, quite simply you're too old. No, seriously. It's a fact that the brain doesn't like to take on such new complex information like a language once you reach about 30. That doesn't mean you'll never speak Japanese but it does mean it will be a lot harder than say some 20 year old. I'll be 36 myself next month (shit, I hate thinking about that) and do find it hard trying to improve my japanese. Lucky for me I started when I was 22 and managed to cram in a load before by brain just gave up.

Yakumo

 

I was 28 when I took my first (and so far only) Japanese class. I understand Japanese better than i can speak it though.

 

I don't live in Japan but when I have the time to go through my books to learn it, It does get better. Saying that, the same as french, I can understand it alot better than I can speak it.

 

I'm going to try all of those methods...heh. I find it does help to imagine situations where you might use it then actually produce the structures, even if it's just me talking to myself. I've stared classes 5 days a week just to be able to speak as much as possible since you don't always get real world situations where you can use some of the more complex grammar on a daily basis.

Yakumo....I think that's partially true. It might be age. I'm 38 now. But my brain has always struggled with things like names. Back when I was at Nova I actually got into trouble since I couldn't remember the students' names. They actually complained to management about it and I had to have a conversation with the manager...heh. They would walk up to me and ask me what their name was. Sounds silly, but after teaching them for a year they were genuinely insulted that I didn't know their name. It's always been the same with books, like when I read about European history, by the next page I've forgotten the name or location if it's a foreign word.

Numbers, on the other hand.....I can hear it once and remember it forever. I think it probably has something to do with the left/right parts of the brain. Maybe that's why my kanji is so good.

 

I think it depends upon how much you're using Japanese in your daily life. If you're just speaking English and not putting yourself in situations where you need to regularly use Japanese for a variety of situations, all of the studying the world won't help your speaking ability.

When I came to this country, I couldn't speak a lick but I put myself into society where I was forced to learn things quickly especially when trying to pick up girls who speak no English. I found that by picking up girls every week and being forced to learn new phrases/grammar/slang, my skillz went up exponentially.

 

It depends on the person too. My Mother is 59 and just recently learned Spanish AND German. So it can be done.

I didn't have too much trouble with Japanese when I took it either. But all i've retained is

O-genki desu ka

O-Tearai wa doko ni arimasu ka

Ohaio Goizimasu

Konbanwa

Hajimemashite

 

Definitely not random -- picked up by Portuguese missionaries. Now why didn't the Christianity stick?

 

Eric, I'm just like you with names. Man, I've know people for years yet haven't got a clue what their real names are. I just make up my own to remember them by. I call one lady "Mr. Donut Lady" because when ever she comes to our house he always brings donuts from Mr. Donut. Another I call "Big *its lady" because she is very generously proportioned. She actually knows I call her this and likes it :nod:

Yakumo

 

Are you just trolling or are you serious? Lol

 

Which part?

My mom learning two languages or the Japanese I've retained?

 

Yeah well come on, you can hardly recite five phrases with incorrect orthography and claim how easy Japanese was for you? That devaluates all the efforts of people who genuinely learn Japanese... it's not hard at all in the beginning, but difficulty sets in pretty quick. Also depends on what kind of course you take, community college for example is crap, university has different levels (intense, regular) that might challenge you even in the beginning (for instance, we've had 5 weeks of Japanese now and know all kana, 45 kanji and enough grammar to fill 3 months of the regular course).

And I don't know about your mom, but how can someone 'recently' learn two entirely different languages at the age of 59? How long has she been studying them? There are barriers that are not easy to overcome, and to learn at least one language properly (like in fluid and with contextual conversational skills) it requires at least five years of university-level learning experience plus regular contact with the language, like in form of a stay in said country. That's what I think is realistic and I know that many will agree on this.

 

I can tell you this, I learnt all Hiragana perfectly in two weeks. How about that for brain power. I F*ing hate katakana though, even now.

Yakumo

 

Really? Personally I prefer the style of Katakana over Hiragana. It always reminds me of the great style of some old Famicom & home computer covers. Or even better, of Japanese movie posters from 1960's and 1970's blockbusters. Whatever you write in Katakana, it looks so futuristic and cool, and yes, I'm totally just founding this on aesthetics because most of the Katakana-words sound rather retarded.

 

Man katakana sucks because you use it so little. As far as hiragana goes, I picked that up over the weekend. Not really all that hard.