Learning Japanese (again)

I posted a thread like this years ago, but things have changed since then so I figured I might as well make a new thread.

I've been thinking about trying to learn Japanese again. I tried using Rosetta Stone before, but that thing is a piece of shit. They expect you to figure things out just from looking at pictures, which is pointless when they could just explain to you in English exactly what it means - well, or close enough anyway.

I guess it wasn't completely useless, though. I do know a few words like "keisatsukan" and "otonatachi" and "akai" as well as some basic grammar, but not enough to really be useful at all.

So I want to try something a little more in-depth. I was reading a book I already had about Japanese, and it occurred to me that Japanese pronunciation is a lot more complicated than I previously thought. I think I have a pretty good overall idea of how to pronounce things, mainly because I've heard it spoken a lot, but I might be missing some of the subtleties of it.

So, for that reason, I think it would be best to get some kind of book and CD combo - that way I will have a good idea of the pronunciation while I'm learning vocabulary and grammar.

Allow me to explain my motives a bit. I do not expect to become fluent in the language. I really only want to learn enough to get simple ideas across. If I could play a game like Shenmue and actually sort of understand what they're saying, that would be a bonus, but not necessary. I don't plan on moving to Japan any time soon, but I would like to visit. I already know hiragana and katatana (my hiragana is a little rusty because I don't use it very much), and I'm not much interested in learning kanji. I just want to know how to speak/understand it.

I considered taking a class at the University, but after sitting in on one day of a class it became evident that it was too intense for me (too much homework/material thrown at you all at once). Hence, I'd just like to learn what little I can in my own spare time.

So, to try to sum up the mess I just typed: I want a beginners-level Japanese language book, preferably with a CD, with in-depth explanations of grammar and cultural background, etc. I could easily find something like this myself, but I figured since many of you have probably read tons of books on the subject, you ought to be able to suggest the best one. So... suggestions?

 

I personally recommend lessons. Books and CDs are OK, but nothing beats going to a lesson and ideally hearing a native speaker.

If you are just doing spare time, then watch some dramas/anime and go down the book/cd route.

I can't imagine doing it half-baked though. My writing and reading ability was superior to my speaking prior to arriving in Japan, and now speaking's overtaken writing by a long way.

My skills are basic and I am sure others can give better advice.

Best of luck, or ganbatte.

 

There is a book/CD combo called "Shadowing, Let's Speak Japanese" that one of my students used (I tutored Japanese at a university part-time). It seemed pretty good. Try it out. I recommend the textbook "Genki" for beginners. Stay away from books that use a lot of romaji. They should use at least hiragana/katakana after the 2nd or 3rd chapter.

iTunes has a lot of Japanese podcasts. There are lessons, but I mean podcasts meant for Japanese listeners. While it may be too advanced for your level, it is a good tool for listening while commuting or just listening to in the background while you do other things. When you train your ears to hear a language, learning it becomes easier. I listen to "TBS 954" podcasts daily. NHK ones are boring and depressing, but very easy to understand.

I suggest watching dramas and emulating what is being said. That is how I perfected my accent. It took a couple years, but it paid off. Try to avoid movies, TV shows, anime, which don't have typical conversations. You're not going to learn a whole lot of useful Japanese watching Dragon Ball. Years back I used old Yakuza movies to train myself, and it had adverse effects, so don't use those! Some people tell me I sound like a chinpira when I speak casually. It's kind of a compliment, but kind of embarassing, too!

But as Martin said, it is best to communicate with native speakers. If you live near a major city, there are usually Japanese people looking for language exchange partners. Check craigslist or other outlets.

 

Cliche as it is, I actually think this guy has some pretty decent explanations of -basic- grammar:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

And I can also recommend Minna no Nihongo. We used it in university in the beginning and I think it is very suitable for self study, especially if you Google some more in depth explanations of grammar in times of doubt. There's lots of pdf's of it floating around so give them a quick look to help you come to a decision perhaps. Just don't get the romaji version.

Although I must say that I do agree that lessons are the way to go, but since you said you didn't have the time for that I would just get a textbook and start with it and move on from there. With the internet there's so much help you can get, especially at the beginner stage.

 

I used Shin Nihongo no Kiso back in the day, which is pretty much the same as Minna no Nihongo.

I saw Genki and it's very good too.

Set goals for yourself, like a set number of Kanji and stuff.

Also, use Anki (a great software for learning) with the "Basic 2000" vocabulary card pack, which has audio and Kanji stuff. That'll help you with the basics.

 

The last time I tried out my Japanese was at Japan Town in San Francisco. I didn't even realize I was doing it until I got a stream of Japanese from a shop keeper. At that second I was trying to take it in and couldn't understand him but as soon as he was done I could tell you exactly what he said.

Problem is I do that with every language unless it is written. Tried to learn American Sign Language and I can sign fairly well just for the love of Thor don't ask me to interpret what someone is signing. I'm the reason the stereotype of talking slowly to non-native speakers exists! As a result taking classes for me just provokes anxiety.

I've never tried taking lessons for Japanese though, only place that offers it is a community college about an hour away.

 

Am I going nuts, or weren't there more posts in this thread before?

 

If you can't be arsed to learn Kanji then I'd say give up :x Unless you're moving to Japan and surrounded by it all the time, and also taking courses(which would also require reading i.e Kanji), you're only going to get any good if you start trying to learn properly, which requires eventually doing Kanji I'd think. Unless you can get lucky and find anything you want in furigana, which isn't likely to be all the time.

If you want the basics, get the Genki book I don't see why you want to limit yourself with how much you learn though, but that's up to you. You'd definitely learn more if you were able to read a lot, since that's where you learn new words easily.

 

Let me use this topic to ask too.

I've enjoyed a lot a App in Apple store to help me with french language.
Is there any apple store app for learning japanese that you guys recommend ?

Is it possible to learn by yourself the amount of japanese to play an rpg game ?

 

San Francisco State has the best Japanese program in California. Give them a try.

 

Noted and I'm not surprised. San Francisco has a very large Japanese population.

 

I would say that in order to completely understand an RPG game, one's Japanese must be very, very good. Depends on the game of course, but most have storylines that involve less common words and thus Kanji which one won't pick up until much later.

Kid's RPGs might be a different story.

Doesn't really affect me though, as I don't really have time for an RPG.

 

I'm at the point were it is easier to use Japanese than English in some cases which is a real shitter if you ask me.

Anyway, when I started out about 12 years back I used Mina No Nihongo and another book by Gaken which I no longer remember the name of.

Both books used kana from the first page which at first seemed stupid to me but actually very useful and a great aid to understanding pronunciation. Even at the beginning I found it easier to read Japanese if it was written in hiragana. I actually learnt all 48 hiragana in 2 weeks. I fucking hate katakana though, even now. Useless shit that never represents the foreign word it covers and all looks the same even though the Japanese tell me it's easier to understand than hiragana. yeah right. Loads of kana that looks similar is easier to remember than kana that all looks different (Hiragana).

Anyway, I'm just going off on a rant now. As others have said, your best bet is for native communication. especially with pronunciation.

Yakumo

 

I use katatana all the time, and yes it's annoying, but it's useful for a non-Japanese speaker. What's odd is I can never just read a full word. I always have to read it one character at a time. I'm guessing that goes away once you've seen a word a few times.

 

HAHA! You native english speakers and your english accents!
Japanese pronounciation is so ez for Slavik people (I'm Polish btw).

Anyway, on topic - get a book "japanese for busy people" (it comes in 3 volumes). It teaches all the daily conversation(not just basics, but everything used when talking casually, also it teaches pronounciation). If you tried and studied only with these books plus a JLPT quiz book you could probably pass the N3 in no time.

Also, to learn hiragana I used a website called "It came from... hiragana quiz". Took me a day to have most the basics covered, and with writing practice I mastered hiragana in 3 days.

 

Not necessarily. The written language really is based around kanji. If you're sounding out every single word that should be written in kanji, you will be spending excess brain cells (and time). Not to mention there are a lot of homophones in Japanese, that are alleviated via kanji.

 

Kanji FTW. It makes reading so much faster. I am still a bit slow with Katakana, and it can take a second to get some new words I haven't seen before.

I don't think Yakumo can complain about Katakana not being directly English sounding, as to my ear, neither is a scouse accent!

Seriously though, it's their language so they can do what they want with it. Brits and Americans alike don't pronounce most foreign places or have completely new words... like "Japan" for example.

 

Yeah, tbh my classmate is from Poland and her pronunciation sucks.

 

Anyone can butcher it, but Japanese pronunciation isn't hard for anyone that I've noticed. In my tenure I've met Japanese speakers from all over the globe and I can't put out any specific one that has totally taken a shit on the language. I even know some French who can speak without sounding *too* French... not often is the case when they speak English.

 

I have to disagree. I think anyone *can* master japanese pronunciation but earlier on you can really tell. Besides the always hilarious American accent I find that a lot of people that come from languages with tone height differences have trouble pronouncing it right. Spanish, Italian, Chinese (ofcourse). Then there's languages like German and other Eastern European countries that keep on pronouncing certain letters, like the S, wrong.