Methods of learning Japanese (writing/conversation)

For years I've contemplated on learning Japanese. There's various ways, but I'm not looking into learning it in depth just so I can somewhat understand conversation and write it.

Learning it on my own is likely not going to happen, I lose motivation quite easily but I do want to learn the language. Mostly I just want to be able to communicate, enough to speak to car yards and wreckers for parts. Also even just to communicate in small talk.

I've looked into physical classes (which I think is best) just to kick start and get a feel for the language. If I learn at some accelerating rate... which I completely doubt I'm too dumb. I might stick with that idea if they seem good.

There's a small handful of classes in my city so it's a bit useless in terms of "if one fails, there's plenty more". It's mostly taught in highschool which is probably why. There's no personal tutors that I could find either.

Other methods I'm not sure what to really do. Maybe some worksheets aimed at little kids possibly but not sure how well that would work with pronunciation.

Only suggestion I don't want is "surround yourself in it" as I have attempted that a few times and didn't help much. I learnt some phrases but about it. The main result I want is to read it I suppose, I mostly view Japanese that way instead of listening to it, but being able to watch some films would be great.

 

Really? give your self a reason to learn it, just wanting stuff in todays world for many people is not enough. Invest real money in it, so you feel like you'll be wasting it if you don't learn the language. Try to take JLPT exams (which you also need to pay for) to have a deadline to master some part of the material.

If you've been contemplating learning the language for years, instead of being serious about it, you've wasted those couple of years where you might have already been at semi-good level.

So my advice would be:
- sign up for a class where you need to spend money, and the classes are somewhat intensive (at least 3-4 times/week)
- set yourself a goal (like each year, a new JLPT level. Although be advised that the skill required for each level increases exponentially)

Take my advice, I've been learinng it off and on for 5 years now, and I'm nowhere near where I want to be, mainly because I've been learning it by myself. The only thing that pushed my progress drastically were the JLPT exam deadlines. Good luck!

 

Wise outlook at this @xmog123x
Sadly I had some life speedbumps in the way, (losses in family) although it's excuse no.1 it's hard to move on from that and focus. But there is a goal and other reasons why I want to learn Japanese. Would be nice to be able to contact stars/idols as well, not all know english, very little do anyhow. I can somewhat communicate a tiny bit but their replies is where I get lost!

Apparently Australia is a country many of them like or want to visit. I'd be upset if I saw them and couldn't say hello type of thing.

The classes are not cheap, I think for a 50minute private lesson it's like $380. I'm not sure if a group lesson would be more suitable as there's 4 other peers around you. Private would be good as it's 1on1.

What would you suggest?

 

Find something that you enjoy in Japanese, and use that as a learning tool.

I personally have had the NHK News podcasts playing while I am at work. It has helped immensely with being able to "get used to" the sound of people speaking in Japanese. They speak slowly and clearly on the news. I enjoy hearing the news, and they often will have certain keywords that are English derived that help with the topic. Other keywords are "Abe souridaijin" (Prime Minister Abe), "asu no tenki" (tomorrow's weather) and yakyuu (baseball). Other than that, I've been working with anki, grabbing sentences from Genki, as well as going through the kanji (at about 650 right now).

 

Wall of text coming through!

I learned the language through self study, so just to give my (cynical) opinion...

Don't waste your money with tutors like that. Just think about it, how much money would you need to spend with these people to actually learn the language fluently? Unfortunately, unless you're in university and taking a 4 year course, you're not going to be finding anywhere that will set you up with being proficient with the language (although I admit I am not up to speed on what sort of classes exist for adults outside of college/uni). That is going to require self study no matter what way you look at it. You can indulge these tutors and pay a ridiculous fee for the next four years or longer and hope they actually have a well thought out curriculum for you (hint: they make it up without any idea of what actual teaching involves and it's only intended to go so far), but you're not going to find anyone that will have a fully laid out course that will bring you to a proficient level. Most tutor types are just doing it on the side and aren't making it their serious career, so don't expect someone that will be there for you for the whole ride of learning the language. Have I been cynical enough about learning a language through a tutor enough yet? Save your money.

I'm just assuming that you're out of school and are a working adult that only wants to learn Japanese as a hobby on the side. I'd really suggest examining how badly you really want to learn the language or if it's just something that seems like it'd be fun, because it will take more effort than anyone that easily gets bored with self-study will be able to make, and I say this as someone whose gone through it myself. After Japanese I tried other languages and the furthest I got was stuff I studied at university. Since graduation, I just don't have time for the dedication. When you're in school at least it's an obligation. When you're not, it really is going to come down to self motivation.

Here's what you should do, based on my exact course for learning the language:

Buy the Genki series and read those first
Purchase "A dictionary of basic Japanese grammar" written by Seiichi Makino, and then buy all the other books in that series
Install Rikaichan. I never had this when I began back in 2003 and used a good old dictionary, but in this day and age Rikaichan covers this for you.
Read the news and forums while doing all of this (yomiuri is a good news site, and their forums are great for reading real speech from actual people, rather than 4ch equivalent Japanese on stuff like 2ch) whenever you have the time. You'll have 1450 Kanji down in a years time due to repetitious reading and constantly seeing them. None of that "oh well I got this Kanji book and am going to just going to read it. ** several years later** I just got ANOTHER new Kanji book and now will learn my first 100 Kanji ^_^" You're not learning the language to know how to write each single Kanji stoke by stroke, you're learning just for the sake of reading. You'll learn all the Kanji you need through recognition, so trust me, put away the shitty Kanji book and just READ READ READ!!
Watch a ton of Japanese TV shows (variety shows and dramas work well. Anime too so long as you have the sense to notice what is not acceptable speech in the real world!)
Don't ever watch stuff with subtitles. Ever. Force yourself into immersion as if you need to learn to live.

Do all of that and play your cards right, you'll be pretty damn proficient in two years, I guarantee you, depending on how much you pull through it of course.

Of course, most people that say they want to learn Japanese or are studying it are STILL studying or wanting to learn like 10 years after they first said that and can't even string together a competent sentence beyond simple nonsense. But you're not going to be one of those people anymore, right?

I was 16 when I first started and going on 30 now, so I completely understand how lack of motivation comes into play as you get older, so don't take anything I say here as saying you're a simpleton for never having made the effort. Just consider how serious you are willing to get with it. I hope the fact you're even humoring $300 1hr tutoring sessions (that sounds like a total ripoff btw), I assume your will to learn is real. And if you ever want more advice, PM me. I've seen so much bullshit about learning and no one ever gets anywhere.

 

Yes, that is very true. There is no magic pill that is going to get you to learning the language at even a slight conversational level just by having a few classes or tutorial sessions. I have spent almost a year's worth of time in Japan during the past 4 years, and just being there does nothing. To learn a language, you need a sustained time commitment for studying that involves a heavy amount of repetition (which is why Anki is highly recommended, since it does it efficiently). If you can't commit to spending at least an hour every day, 7 days a week to doing this, I think it would be very difficult to pick up the language. Japanese is fucking difficult, made even worse by the complicated writing system.

 

That's what I mainly worry about. Mostly just want something to steer me in the right direction and learn it from there. Originally why I thought of some classes as I might pick some things up. At the same time, I barely trust education systems private or not.

I do have quite a bit of time on my hands. It was suggested I do something that keeps me occupied (due to my mental health), like going to activities. If I could make that a learning experience which has outside usefulness then I would be more likely do it. Why classes were somewhat a good suggestion I gave myself.

Understandable that saying a few classes won't help, and they're very expensive. It's close to a weekly grocery pickup! It has other benefits along with it. Just not easy on the wallet.

After watching and interacting at some live streams, I've already learned a few phrases. As in if I hear them I know I'm hearing "thank you", "hello". So I'm understanding the smallest bit of information I hear lol. Oh and that's another one I picked up 笑.

I'm actually not just out of school or a working adult. I am recovering from dramatic losses and need something to motivate me from sitting at home all day. Been out of school since roughly 2008. Notice interacting with Japanese talent has been increasing my moods, which is very healthy for me at the moment. So the motivation is there right now.

Might PM with some questions a bit later if I come up with some.

Are these the books you're talking about? Any order in particular?
https://www.amazon.com/GENKI-Integrated-Elementary-Japanese-English/dp/4789014401

 

Yep, that's the book. I actually never bought the 2nd Genki book back when I started the language, but that was mainly because I had bought that beginning grammar book and also was watching and reading so much that it wasn't needed. But I'd definitely recommend it for someone that isn't as obsessive as I was back then (i.e. watching at least 3 hours of Jp TV a day). Fascination with Japanese at 16yrs old isn't the same as when you're 30 years old

By all means, I'm open if you ever have any questions in PM. I think if you're trying to change your life in some way when just sitting there, a language can be pretty good. It opens a whole new world to you. Doesn't hurt Japanese has all the entertainment that comes with it, either.

 

Saw some pages of the book online. Does the CD with it play a major role? It seems it's in the advanced area of learning since it started straight into sentences. So I don't really understand the characters. Curious on how to start even with the book? Just before I spend money on one is all.
I looked up some pre-school (starting very low here lol) but just to learn the characters a bit better.

 

I never used the CD, just watched TV for my pronunciation. I never did the homework usually either. Everyone's different of course, but I was getting enough immersion and also was doing it self study with no one to interact with, so I didn't do much past just reading and learning.

It's been a long time since I've seen the book so I forget if it taught them, but have you studied Katakana and Hiragana? I'd recommend knowing them first of all before even learning a single Kanji if you're at the absolute beginners level.

 

I'm an absolute beginner here. Currently just looking at a hiragana chart, also got some pre-school sheets to trace characters so I learn what they look like and how to write them.

Edit:
Bit difficult since so much is written Kanji and having to convert everything, although I'm beginning to identify characters in Hiragana already - Which I suppose is a good start.

 

Thanks for the wall of text, though. I will try to pressure me too into this. I want in part to play a lot of japanese games I already have.

I mean, how many of us can't say something like: "If I have started five years ago" or even more.

I'll try not to be one to say in two years: "If I have started two years ago when HEX1GON created that topic".

 

Assuming you take time out for gaming, the Famicom has tons of games you can practice Kana with (Kana being the term for both Katakana and Hiragana), since the vast majority of games were written only in Kana since Kanji would take up too much space. I remember Genki using all Kana and gradually putting in new Kanji for chapters which should be good, though.

Also, this again is another personal preference, but if you're going to learn, buy the books rather than download them. We spend our lives in front of PCs these days and are used to being able to switch between whatever we want on these things, which possibly can help in making someone feel antsy and impatient with just sitting there staring at a scanned book. I've found having an actual book for reference helps in terms of memory since there's more of a manual effort involved. Go to youtube and get a 2hr playlist or something going in the abckground and just read, it makes for a more relaxing experience. But again, that's just me.

 

Do whatever motivates you. I've attempted in the past and life got in the way. I have time at the moment, trying to get in better health. I've noticed learning Japanese has made me feel better already. Keeping me busy and so on.

I plan on doing that actually - so far I am enjoying this but the grammar really gets in the way sometimes hah. Any dictionaries you can recommend?

 

This is back in 2003-04 we're talking about, but I would look at this thing like crazy and try memorizing every word for each Kanji

https://www.amazon.com/Kodansha-Kanji-Learners-Dictionary/dp/4770028555

Rikaichan will do a pretty good job for learning these days, but it never hurts to have an actual dictionary you can pick up. It also arranges Kanji by their radicals, iirc.

 

I should probably learn Hiragana first... Apparently it doesn't take very long to. Starting to memorise the first few a i u e o.
Maybe a slow start but at least I'm not as stupid as I thought

 

Yeah, I would spend a couple of days and learn hiragana, which is also useful because it also will help you learn romaji, which is used for typing on a keyboard.

There are a couple of websites that I would recommend having a look at if you are learning Japanese from scratch.

All Japanese all the time

Japanese Level Up

Both of these sites really advocate learning the kanji based on the Heisig method (basically in logical order based on radicals). Honestly if you ask me, it doesn't really matter after the first 200 or so kanji - you quickly get in your head what the radicals are and how they are used to compose more complicated kanji. The vast majority of kanji are so-called "phono-sematic compounds", where one radical represents the meaning, while the other represents the sound (at least in ancient Chinese). I find it useful to look at the etymology of the kanji, as it builds an understanding of the logic of the characters.

I know everyone learns differently, but after a bunch of dead ends, this is how I would recommend learning Japanese, and is what I am doing:

1) Immediately find something with Japanese people speaking, and listen to it all day in the background. The news is a good choice, because they speak clearly and slowly. I listen to NHK news podcasts, they provide 2-3 hours of content every day. Anime may not be a great choice for the start because they speak in a very exaggerated, colloquial way.

2) Master hiragana and katakana. Do this before diving into kanji, because any sort of reading material that is useful for a beginner (such as manga) will have furigana (small kana characters beside the kanji that tell you how it is pronounced). Katakana is pretty useful as many words spelled with it are English derived, instantly giving you some meaning to the text.

3) Start learning kanji. The sites I gave above use the Heisig method, but I don't think it is particularly important the order you learn. I've got a book that uses what I believe to be a newspaper frequency order, as many of the earlier kanji are related to politics. There are different approaches to learning Kanji (see this page), and the one I have been doing is simply to learn the meaning of each character, as well as the etymology. The great thing about learning the meaning of the character and not worrying about learning a Japanese keyword to go along with it is that it is quite a bit faster, in my opinion. Japanese is complicated by the fact that each character usually has at least a couple of readings, so it will overload you if you try to learn this in addition to the meaning. Once you start knowing the meanings of the characters, it becomes possible to make a guess to what the text means, even if you don't know how it is pronounced. Also useful for Chinese text! With Anki, I add eight new kanji every day. With writing practice (I write down each kanji as I go), it takes me about 30 minutes to go through the 80-100 kanji that pop up every day. People with better memory might be able to plow through at a faster rate, but everyone is different. This, combined with making up 8 new cards every day, takes up at least an hour.

4) Start with sentences after learning about 500 or so kanji. Even at a beginner level in Genki, you will find a ton of kanji, and I find it is useful to have gone through the meaning and etymology in my kanji deck before using them in a sentence. By the time you get through 500 kanji (if you do 8 a day like I did above, about two months), you will have had plenty of listening experience to know how Japanese is pronounced, and will be used to the sounds. I can certainly do a lot more sentences than the 8 per day that I do with kanji, but it can take time to add them. Especially true if you are typing in the sentences by hand. It is a very time limited exercise, and it may not be useful to add sentences at the expense of doing something more fun like watching Japanese TV. There is a mod for Anki that will automatically generate the furigana for the kanji, I would make sure to use this for your sentences. Make sure to check the furigana, sometimes it does it wrong (particularly with numbers).

As with anything, the more time you can put in per day, the faster your progression will be. I am pretty busy with work, exercising, making meals and SNES Central, so I can only commit to about one hour a day. I will fully admit that I will have a long way to fluency at that rate. The important thing is consistency, do your Anki repetitions every day or it can become a monster.

 

I feel to interject, as I've also been working on this, (private tutor and self motivation) and having a teacher that knows about Japanese does sure help. I've been working on pages and pages of kanji (believe me, it's not been fun) as I've been working with about 3,234 that I've been working on (yes it is a lot, but I just tried to find a page with lots of kanji, and it turned out to be a lot) and it definitely helps that I've been playing imported ps1 and ps2 games, but I'll say that from experience, you should start with the katakana and hiragana tables, and while a lot of that kanji may be outdated, it is still nice to have, and it's nice to have a teacher, but if you don't have much money, I recommend doing it self taught, as that will be much cheaper.
I will though say, Namco Museum Encore is not a good starting point as all the text is crunched and difficult to read. I know.

some simple text, just as examples:
あ:A　い:I　う:U　え:E　お:O
ア:A　イ:I　ウ:U　エ:E　オ:O
こんにちは!: konnichiwa!: hello!
日本語: nihongo: japanese

I might be back for more if you want more, but you will want to look up some good tables for hiragana and katakana.
-End wall of text-

 

Try a few apps and see which ones connects with your learning style. I tried a few flashcards app but did not work for me. I found this game Kana Legends on the app store and I just play it whenever I am idle. Seems to work for me. Good luck on your journey!