It seems to me that MS is playing this one fair and square. Of course, it's arguable if the X360 was ready to launch now (while the overheating and disc scratching problems are probably documented in the operating manual, most people don't even get passed the assembly diagram pages, so all rough edges should ideally be rounded off to avoid problems - as they say, "people are stupid"), or if it was rushed to be first (hardly an advantage, anyway) or to be released this xmas (quite likely). Perhaps that guy should learn how Nintendo products are distributed around here (one of the reasons I'll never touch a Ninty product other than my long-dead Game & Watch).
I think that the problem is Microsoft willingly and knowingly released a product with a design flaw (overheating). Regardless of whether or not every single unit released has the problem, it is still a problem. Just because the lawsuit seems "picky" to some of you doesn't automatically mean that it is not valid and that MS didn't break the law.
If the product had an inherent design flaw it would be in nearly every single unit. The fact of the matter is, it is a very small minority of units that have issues and the total number is well within the stastical standard deviation from the norm. So no, Microsoft did not "willingly and knowingly" release a product with a design flaw. -hl718
I wouldn't go so far to say that there is any inherent flaw in the systems themselves, it is more along the lines of isolated problems just like the Thompson drives in the first revision Xbox 1's and the drives in the earlier PS2's. I've had my Xbox since release day and it has seen some pretty hard play, and that Thompson drive is still running like clockwork, but not everyone had the luck I did. Same goes for PS2's, how many of the original PS2's are still around... not a whole heck of a lot from my observations anyways. From what I've read and been able to test out on two friends of mines 360's, a lot of the overheating problems stem from the system not receiving proper ventilation. My buddy Dan beat me to the punch and sent his 360 off to Microsoft before I knew he was having problems, but I was able to help my other friends out. My one friend Brandon had his power supply and 360 just sitting there on his shaggy carpet and it would start to get glitchy and freeze up after about 10-15 minutes of playing. Convinced him to eliminate his VCR from his AV rack to make room (who watches videotapes these days anyways?) and put the 360 up there along with its power supply (making sure it wasn't stuffed back behind a pile of wires). Voila... we played Call of Duty 2 and drank Yuenglings that night for 6 hours straight without a hitch. Recommended doing the same thing to my other buddy and he had the same good luck as well. I think the biggest problem these days is people don't realize that the modern video game system is a completely different beast than your old Nintendo. An Xbox 360 basically consists of three computers shoved inside a box the size of a DVD player. Any decent computer user makes sure his computer gets ample, unrestricted ventilation... so why wouldn't you do the same for your 360? From what I've seen this eliminates a lot of the headaches people are having. Sorry for the long winded post... just my two cents… [edit] I don't think it would be a bad idea for Microsoft to incorporate a fan somehow into/onto the power supplies in the next revision of 360s though. Whenever I get around to buying one, that'll be the first thing I'll be doing to it.
well people have been spoiled. I know I was able to cram 4 consoles (xbox, GC, DC, ps2) stacked on top of each other by the corner of my tv setup since I live in a dorm and had no problems. it isn't really too far out of the question for MS to realize that people hold videogame consoles in lower regard than PC towers...
The power supplies *do* have built-in fans and they're very efficient at pumping the hot air out of the power supply. Course, if you block the vent or put the power supply in an enclosed space that hot air has nowhere to go. I've literally had 360s running for weeks at a time and nary a problem with overheating. It's a $300-$400 piece of equipment. You'd think people would actually read the manual and treat it well, as opposed to just treating it like a $50 toy. -hl718
Didn't really look around at the power supply enough to notice a fan in it, but your definitely right about the enclosed space thing. Try putting some paper over the vents on your PC's power supply and see how long you can go before it craps out or you lock up... probably not very long. [edit] I just checked around and came across this site http://wootboot.com/360psu where some guy made a supplementary cooler. I'd probably end up putting together something like this (only not so ghetto looking). I'm a stickler for cooling anyways, one look at my computer and you'd definitely know that.
I got a jury summons once. I just checked off the box that says "deceased" and sent it back. Haven't heard from them since. The 360 definitely overheats, but I've also heard people complain about game saves not working. Maybe that's the "unspecified damages" this guy is talking about, playing the game all the way to the end to find out that damn console didn't save it. That would piss me off enough to sue.
Top Cell phones in US cost about the same as an xbox 360 and they get treated far worse. The fact is people don't really know its a PC running thier games on the TV. Plus $400US not really being all that much due to inflation and you are likely to get people doing the following stupid things with a console that they would NOT do with a PC: standing on it, running it for 16 hours on shag carpet in a hot room, cramming it on a shelf with a with a dozen other entertianment system electronics, throwing or kicking it due to frustration ect. I know these things are tested before they hit the shelf, but I must say consoles are a tad too fragile for what they are meant to do.
A design flaw does not have to be something that manifests itself in every unit. A design flaw can, however, cause defects (i.e. overheating) to occur. The defect doesn't have to appear in a majority of units or even a single unit before it warrants a recall or reengineering. All you have to do is look at the number of products that have been recalled by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. A good portion of these items have a very low incidence rate, particularly anything relating to small children. While very few would argue that those who are pissed are more vocal than those who are happy (i.e. the overheating problems may appear amplified), the fact is there are still quite a few people complaining about this particular problem. Whether or not this overheating problem, if left unattended, can eventually cause a fire remains to be seen. Hopefully, it will not cause any external damage for anyone, but such a threat requires that the power supply undergo additional scrutiny. Straight out of the manual it states that the power adapter must be placed in a well ventilated area. While this is in effect a method of covering their own asses, it also implies that Microsoft is aware that the PS can become overheated. Because of that, MS is expected to have exercised due diligence in its design. This is what (I expect) the lawsuit would attempt and be required to prove.
What he said. The main point here is that Microsoft has offered to replace faulty systems. If they told each and every customer who bought a busted 360 that they were SOL, THEN there would be lawsuit material. But Microsoft is upholding their end of the warranty, rendering this lawsuit redundant and above all, stupid. Speaking of stupid, that's a pretty dumbass thing to say. This country doesn't demand much from its citizens, but one of the things you're expected to do is serve on a jury when summoned - it's sortof the basis of the whole legal system. If more people actually paid their dues and served on juries instead of gloated about how cute they were in exploiting an arguably easy system, we wouldn't hear about half of the ridiculous court cases these days because an intelligent jury would shut them down. It's not much redistribution when you think about it. It's basically money from a corporation that - regardless of their popularity - has EARNED it going to some dick who's only effort involved calling up Joe Lawyer to nail down the details. Either way, I never see a cent, so those lazy bastards can take a hike for all I care. It's not helping me any more than if it just stayed in Microsoft's coffers. :evil:
See, that is where you are wrong. Whether or not you realize it, in the end, many (not all) consumer protection lawsuits actually do help the consumer. These laws are in place for a reason: to protect the consumer from unscrupulous or uncaring corporations. Corporations like MS can afford to just replace the "faulty" equipment as it is typically much cheaper than correcting the actual problem. It is only through government action (which is slow and typically biased towards corporations currently) or lawsuit that certain product defects/design flaws will be corrected. Everyone sees the lawsuits, but never actually reads them or tries to understand the basis. Yes, there are stupid juries and occasionally a stupid judge, but both are either implicitly aware of the related laws and legalities, or (in the case of most jurists) are made aware of the applicable laws during the trial and deliberation process. Sorry, sometimes my engineering and legal backgrounds rear their heads...:icon_toil
Not to dog your engineering experience, but I'm sure you're aware of the correlation between the size and power of a piece of electronic equipment versus the amount of parts they contain. As pieces of consumer electronics shrink in size and grow in power, companies are going to do everything they can to keep costs down, and if it means being more lenient on quality control or sourcing for their parts, so be it. The cost of ensuring each 360 released is flawless would be unimaginable, and I doubt consumers would be happy to pay $700 for the extra QC. That's the entire concept of a warranty - a company makes their product as good as they can under certain restraints (cost being just one example), but will replace the product for the customer if it is indeed faulty. Warranties are not a new concept, neither are appliances breaking. It's only in this litigation-happy era that we the customer want our appliances to be smaller and more feature packed, yet have the hubris to demand that each item is crafted flawlessly from angels on high or we sue. The customer may be always right, but he is never satisfied.
I certainly understand the correlation between an intricate piece of electronics with microscopic components and the defect rate. I also think that this guy might have been better off by accepting a replacement and filing a separate complaint with the CPSC or possibly even the FTC. Clearly more engineering and better QC/QA/QE will cost money and potentially increase the cost of the final product for either the manufacturer (no) or the consumer (yes). I am not talking about how MS cut corners to decrease the cost of the console, rather that their cuts have caused a potential design flaw. Yes, this example may appear over the top, but stick with me as it really is not. Take the example of a faulty weld on a piece of mechanical equipment (say some towing equipment). If that weld is insufficient for the load it is carrying, it can break and have an effect ranging from only damage to the equipment (think warranty repair), to causing a major accident with human injuries or death. There are three ways that this weld failed: user error, welder error (manufacturing defect, used the wrong type of weld or not enough) or engineering error (design flaw, called for the wrong type of weld or didn't call for enough). Don't think that this situation applies to the 360? What if the PS overheats to the point where it catches the carpet on fire? You could have a potentially more dangerous/deadly situation than a 25 ton piece of equipment which fails. User error would be pretty obvious; do not stack oil soaked rags near the 360. The other two situations, however, are not so cut and dry. In both cases, defects and flaws, the manufacturer is responsible for failures. For design flaws (which this lawsuit pertains to), the burden of proof would be to show that the design of the power supply's cooling solution is insufficient or fails to take into account the expected use of a "reasonable person". In other words, regardless of the warnings in the manual, a reasonable person would expect to be able to put the PS on the floor and forget about it. If that is the case, MS may be required to either recall or reengineer the PS regardless of the fact that they are replacing them now. That, while it can be instigated by personal lawsuits, is more on the side of government regulation. Even if the problem ends up being a result of a poor manufacturing process, if the problem is widespread enough, then it becomes MS's responsibility to examine and correct the process.
You got there before me mate. And they wonder why the rest of the world look down on them :shrug: I'm not disrespecting any of or US board members but you have to admit that when it comes to pure idiots the US has more than it's fair share. Yakumo
**cough cough** George W. **cough** I swear, I just have a cold... I don't know where that came from. ;-) [edit] Just thought of this, but try not to take that too seriously, I don't want to be responsible to this entire topic going off thread.
Go go Yakumo! It's up to you to constantly remind those stupid Americans where they stand! Always at the ready with the comment every conversation needs! Make sure you remind everyone how many idiots there are in the US. How many?? OH: A LOT! :dance: Because it's a big country and all! And always remember, if something stupid happens anywhere else in the world, it's because of a stupid individual, but if it's in the US, then remember it's because THE US IS OVERRUN BY IDIOTS!! GAAAHHHH!!! :drool: <Webster> And 'disrespecting' is not a word recognized anywhere outside of Eubonics </Webster>
I am attempting not to rehash anything, but I may, so forgive me. This lawsuit is frivolous only to the degree that any monotary damages this man is awarded, probably shouldn't be. But the base of the lawsuit, I very much feel is appropriate. What did they estimate the defect rate was of the Xbox 360... something like 12%. That is CRAZY. If we as consumers bend over and take this, it sets precident that any manufacturer of goods can start spewing out merchandise without regard for its quality, because they can replace it, and you are content with that. DONT BE!
Only in America, as well as in other countries too as a matter of fact, can you be dumb as a brick and hold a powerful public position such as President or Prime Minister or whatever. It is not what you know, it is who you know. This has been going since forever. I think MS knew very well that the 360 gets pretty hot, as well as it's power adaptor, and designed them as best as they can to be practical to where it can survive in an entertainment cabinet as well as being very top of the line technology wise. The same for the power adaptor, so that it can be decently cooled in semi cluttered conditions. Half of America's homes are cluttered, especially the households with kids. So, they knew about it well before and designed it as best as possible to stay a powerful system but survive the harshest living condition as best as possible. And yes 12% estimated (not fully confirmed by MS) defect rate is pretty high when you consider how many Xboxes were sold in USA, that's basically 1 out of every 10 people have a 360 that overheats or freezes on them.
