"Piracy" war room, all stances invited

If you cant afford them and you havent got the originals then you have no legal rights whatsoever to use a backup of a game you do not even own :Hangman:

 

Legality

Legality has never stopped anyone. What really should be a crime is inflating the price of games to ridiculous levels.

The sound quality difference isn't really noticible to me anyways because I play it on a crappy 12 year old MONO tv.

 

Also - a GD-ROM is 1.2Gb NOT 1.5Gb - and besides , if more people bought games instead of being lamers dling them then they could afford to lower the prices

 

Actually, games have always retailed for $40-$60, so it's not like there's a huge markup due to "piracy". And while you're entitled to your opinion on this issue, that doesn't make any of us who take the try-before-you-buy approach "lamers" or "assholes", got it?

And on the issue of PDS and RS, again, they are being sold for prices that do NOT go back to the original developers, and therefore it's a far different issue than "X game costs too much in the store so I'm going to pirate it". Now if they were readily available in stores for a real price (>$60) that's one thing, but all the copies you see for these stupid inflated prices come from people who want to line their pockets at others' expense. I think the "you can't afford it, so don't play it" thing is a very elitist thing to say, and its what allows these people to keep scamming us with their stupid prices. Radiant Silvergun is by no means rare, judging by the fact that there are always at least 6 copies on eBay here, and while it is a good game, there's no reason that people should charge $150 for it except greed. THAT'S what I have a problem with. Using the "if you can't afford it, don't mess with it" defense to hide behind is just a way to ensure that these greedy people keep making their money. I'm sure if there were enough people willing to say, "Your price is ridiculous, I have a CD-R copy", that game would be priced reasonably.

It just sounds to me that the majority of voices here are in unison about being willing to pay for things at their intended prices, but not when jacked up by importers or eBay 'collectors' or anything else.

 

I like backups because I like to own everything I can digitally. I for one like to own very few originals and lots of files I can pack significantly more into my space.

Also I find it funny that I do not play any of the CD backups I "own" (if you could call it that.) By looking at whats currently connected to my TV you'd think it were 1993.

 

LeGIt I take the exact opposite when it comes to MAME. In the US the arcade is pretty much dead. My town has 50,000 people and there isn't one traditional arcade here anymore. This isn't because of piracy. It's because home consoles have surpassed the arcade in graphics.
I download MAME roms because I miss the old arcade days of youth. I truly believe that without MAME nine out of ten of these games would fade into history. Not to mention the fact that without MAME I've gotten to play some great games the I never knew existed and would've never gotten a chance to play otherwise. Games like Sonic Arcade, Haunted Castle (Castlevania), Parodius DA, Megaman Power Battles, Dragonball, ect. I also have finally gotten to play again games I really liked but couldn't remember the name. I love the feeling of getting a MAME rom to some game that was at my arcade for two weeks fifteen years ago that I never knew the name of and finally playing it again. Of all the piracy nowadays MAME is the one easiest to justify.

 

About game prices rising due to piracy. In Japan games would cost up to 10'000 yen for an average release back in the day of the Super Famicom and before. Then Sega made a new price point of 5800yen. It stayed like this through the days of the late Mega CD, Saturn and Dreamcast (Until 2002) Other companies followed with N64 games being 5800 yen were Super Famicom games were 8000 to 10000 yen. Then Sony decided to bump up the price of games to 6800 with their PS2 releases because they were on DVD so they cost more to produce. Bull Sh!t I say. A DVD doesn't cost 1000 yen more to produce than a CD. Anyway, the point is that game prices have dropped here in the last 8 years while piracy has grown. Games on the Game Boy or GBA, Wonder Swan, Neo Geo Pocket and so on have always cost about 3500 to 4500 yen.

Another good point about piracy not affecting prices is that of DVDs. They are now dropping in price here. I bought Matrix Revolutions 2 DVD set last Thursday (April 1st) for 2500 yen. A year ago this would have cost me about 4000 yen.

Yakumo

 

Yeah Japanese DVDs are way too expensive. My friend got reamed two years ago US$109 or something for a single imported DVD at San Francisco's Japan Center. 10 years ago Laserdiscs were like $100 a pop standard.

 

I have to agree with Mr. snow here on MAME. I live in a major city (Los Angeles) and I tell you I haven't seen a NEW arcade game in years. Used to be that your local stop n' go or 7-11 had arcade cabinets, no more of that crap (they got rid of them to get the kids out of the stores.) Shopping malls used to have arcades too, but all the ones I go to either don't have them at all or have games from the mid to late 90s. So how am I ever going to get to experience any new cool arcade releses, let alone the hundereds (if not thousands) of bad-ass Japanese arcade games that never made it to the USA? MAME is the only solution.

Things like emulators aren't piracy. What they are, are legitimate computer programs that let you run software otherwise incompatible with your current computer. Didn't emulation start off with machines like the Commodore 64 or Sinclair Spectrum? Console Eumulation is an offshoot of that. And since the majoity of emulators are for systems that are no longer in production nobody is stealing money from the parent company's sales when they use an emulator.

So technically I suppose if somebody made a PS2 emulator, that in itsef would not be "piracy" any more than owning a set of lockpicking tools would be "thievery." Possessing the tool itself does not automatically make you guilty of the crime. It's only when somebody uses the tools to make income from the work of somebody else that piracy has been commited. Somebody who burns a shitload of Roms onto a disk and sells it is guilty of piracy, but someone who does the same thing and gives it to a friend is not. It's still a complicated issue that the courts are going to take years to figure out.

Still, I do not download new commercially avialible games, simply becasue to do so would contribute to game companies losing money and no longer producing new games. They wouldn't stop completely, they would just cut development resources. Thus all new games would suck ass. I do not want that to happen.


One thing nobody's mentioned yet are the hundreds of companies around the world that make pirate game consoles, like Famiclones. Wasn't there a video on the old board of a steamroller running over some famiclones in Holland or something?

Well, honestly I collect pirate carts and systems, just becasue I think they're fun. I don't go out of my way to get them though. I do like the "Hong Kong Originals," (like famicom versions of Tekken or Street Fighter II, I've got one called "Super Fighter III" which actually plays rather well.) Like Jhonny said, in some places these are the only games people can afford, so if you're a game company and the pirates offer something you don't, then too bad for you. Supply and Demand, that's how capitolism works.

Companies like Nintendo are never going to get rid of Pirates (and will never beat them at thier own game either. I have no doubt that Pirate versions of the Ique will be availible soon.) What they should do is charge a liscencing fee for a company to manufacture a clone of their discontinued consoles, at least that way they could still make some money off it. Imagine how cool that would be, going to your local game store and seeing new SNES systems with new games all selling for real cheap.

As for music, the record companies are run by a bunch of criminals anyway. Feel free to download all you want. Fuck'em.

 

And please, can somebody turn off the bad language filter? "Binky Boo'em" Just sounds stupid. We're all adults here.

 

its interesting to see Yakumo typed "pairacy" three times, I thought it should have been "Piracy" :smt040

Right then, carry on mateys :smt033

 

I tell you, the longer I'm in Japan the worse my English gets :smt022

Yakumo

 

Well, to say piracy increases costs of games is utter rubbish. Publishers are BUSINESSES, and all businesses are out to make money. Inflation and increased lesiure cash amongst most people pushes prices up. Not to mention everyone and his dog haveing 3 or 4 credit cards and not worrying about debt. If people are willing to pay, then you cant blame companies from selling at high prices.

I think the prices they charge for most (not all) new games are crazy. Unless more titles like Beyond good and evil which were retailing at around 19.99 before xmas follow, then its only going to get worse.

At the end of the day, pirates and 'legit' businesses are both out to scam you out of your money.

As for Ebay auctions, then roll on piracy! Like f00k would i pay the daft prices for an orignal RS when as was mentioned earlier, the developers arnt getting the money just some asshole who is makeing more money than the pirates.

But hey, i think i have a problem with companies and businesses full stop. After all the dont give a fuck about the consumer so i think fuck them

Not saying that i agree with dodgy people selling dvdrs or cdrs at markets tho!

I do however like the shiny fake pirates you get from russia and hong kong etc that are actually pressed disks and often have cheesy artwork

I am a game collecter, i like to own obsucre hardware and the games i enjoy

Just my 2pence worth..

 

This "problem" with arcades dissapearing is because lack of innovation and because home consoles are on the same quality. Just check some of the most used boards on arcade:

- Naomi, Naomi 2, Atomiswave -> similar to the Dreamcast, just more powerful

- Triforce -> Nintendo-Sega-Namco -> Based on Gamecube

- Chihiro -> X-Box based

- System 246 - PS2 based

Anyway, about the lack of innovation. 10 years ago, arcade simulators like Virtua Racing, After Burner and Super Monaco GP were amazing, and home ports would be great but not perfect.

Nowadays, F-Zero AX and F-Zero GX are the same game released at the same time on the arcade and Gamecube. To help people to be interested to play the arcade they made the games compatible using save cards, GC memory cards... This will work for some time, but not long.

Some innovation i liked was the one used on Police 24/7 / Police 911. Instead of making a shooting game like Time Crisis and Virtua Cop, they put sensors that make you avoid the bullets by ducking and hide behind walls.

Don't know the situation of arcades in usa. In japan it seems to be fine (i can tell this from yakumo videos.) In brazil, any shopping center or malls have at least a small arcade.

 

Where I live in the USA there are plenty of small arcades, some have many patrons. Unfortunately they stock bizzare retro games that nobody plays and the "new" games they have are usually DDR and Time Crisis stuff. Every arcade around here also has a single Neo Geo which is always hogged by some really lame fanboy who will play the crappiest game of the four for at least a half hour. Other annoying things are the poseur kids who play stuff like Capcom vs SNK and pick Ryu and Ken. I haven't even bothered visiting an arcade for over a year (other than in Japan a few weeks ago.)

 

I would like to admit that I own about 15 PC games that I copied from my friends or downloaded at friend's lan parties (cuz that how we got to have fun was with the games they provided). On top of that I own about 4 downloaded DC games and 15 PSX games. As for emulators and roms..... 960 NES, 400SNES, 50Genesis/1SegaCD/five32x. When I see the game available at a store and if I have the money at that time then I'll buy it. However, I don't mention those in my game collection because I'm really not like that. When I say that I own about 100games, they are all legit copies.

I also have about 50 FREEWARE games that I download. A lot of them are great vertical shooters. I plan on making my own and it will feature something special :smt027

 

I actually have the complete NES ROM set. Over 8000 games, three versions of each game (American, Japanese, and European.) However, I still buy NES games (and Famicom games, when I can find them becasue I like playing it on the TV the way it was supposed to be.

 

8000 roms? Geez :smt024

PS: By the way, what is the best NES emulator?

 

I dont use my PC emulator. I have been playing the PSX version of an NES emulator. It works great as far as emulation goes. Sometimes though, the PSX won't load the games because of the low quality laser not good enough to read off of CDRs.

 

People have an odd view of piracy. If you are copying something for free, if it isn't available in your country, if it isn't sold any more, it is STILL piracy.

The backup law is really a US law that everyone worldwide seems to think is their right, which is not the case. Even in the US, its a dubious use of an old law that only REALLY applies to media that can be easily damaged, even when properly stored. This really applies only to tape media (for which this law was introduced), which is of course magnetic. CDs and ROM chips are NOT easily destroyed in correct storage, so actually aren't supposed to count.

Piracy affects us all. We are collectors. People who pirate games affect the value of our items. Much as its a great feeling to have bought PDS new at £39.99 and be able to sell it for £100, its a destroying feeling to pay £100 for it and then find it goes for £30 due to an influx of copies. The reason it is being sold so high? Well, you can all STOP blaming the "money grabbing" sellers. Actually, the REAL reason...

Panzer Dragoon Saga was made in fairly limited numbers, being made late in the Western Saturn's lifetime. Its a damn good game. As such, people hold onto it instead of trading it in for PS2 games, or selling it at a boot fair for £5. Therefore, finding a copy was quite hard a few years ago. It simply didn't turn up much in 2nd hand game stores. Therefore, when eBay becomes popular for collectors, and someone throws it up for £1 (or whatever), everyone takes an interest. £1 quickly becomes £20, then £50, then £100. Others see it, and say damn I'll sell mine! All those who bid still want it, so bid the same again. As a result, people raise the value of it, and more copies come on the market. This had the effect of stabilizing the price (which is good). So, its being sold for that because people will pay it - remember something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it! Sure, a shop may put it out for £100, that's their right. And someone may prefer to buy it there and then, rather than gamble on eBay.

Anyway, enough about that, back to piracy.....

So yeah, it hurts us.... those people are prepared to pay for it, but most just wanna play it. When they find a copy to download (or some bastard fl;ogging it for a tenner) they'll go for that. This means fewer people bid on it, and the price drops. It also hurts the developers. THEY have the rights to the game. They sell you the right to play it, NOT to copy it. Their rights DO NOT expire when a console dies. They have AT LEAST 25 years of copyright, actually probably more. They could, if they wish, re-release a game on another system, as part of a bundle perhaps (like Mario All Stars, or the Zelda Collector's Disc). They still have the right to sell that game, but if the original is going to be pirated, there isn't much point. Also, if people pirate their CURRENT software, they lose money. Therefore, they go bankrupt, or just refuse to make games for the affected area. Once again, WE LOSE OUT. Also, the constant high prices of software themselves are linked to piracy. Were it not for piracy, more people would buy the games, and the prices could be dropped.

Now, an area that particularly affects this board.... BETA/PROMO software. The rights to this belong to the developer. I don't care if the game was never released. I don't care if the developer no longer exists/merged with another... YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO "RELEASE" IT. NOONE should make money from that game except the developer. They have every right to can a project, you have NO RIGHT to play it. They can then bring it out on another platform if they so wish. Leaked betas make it less likely they will do so.

I know I'm just talking about software here, and this applies to music and films too, but this is the area that directly concerns us. Piracy ultimately hurts the gamer, and the collector. And in the end, all the pirates do is whinge about how a game wasn't released, or a company dissolves, or about the price of games. YOU are the ones causing that.

NOBODY has the right to download ROMs because they are "dead" systems, or "old" games. So what? If you like it, get the original! There's nothing like playing it AS IT WAS INTENDED. No matter what you do, an emulator will never be 100% perfect (if you wanna contest that, think about this... 50/60Hz TV vs 60-100HZ interleaved monitors with higher resolutions (you're talking a difference of 15kHZ to 80 kHZ, basically). Sure, its great when the maker allows it, but even then, some wanker decides to break the agreement and try to make money out of it.

Sure, there's the uber-bad pirate, who makes money selling them. Still, if you download or copy games, don't think you're not a pirate because YOU ARE.

p.s. Yakumo, like I said the "backup" rule is iffy, but I don't think you'll be arrested for showing them that you have a couple of games, all of which you have the sealed original.