Pressing new discs?

I was wondering if anybody knows anything about pressing new discs, so that they would run on an unmodded console, I'm talking mainly about ps1 and saturn games. Let's say that I would like to develop a game for an older system, and distribute it / sell it without people needing to mod their consoles. Is that at all possible with the PS1 or Saturn? Would there be any licensing/legality issues? I'd be using the PS1 SDK provided by tails92 (nextvolume) and Red Ring Rico (Saturn). Has anybody got any experience with that? I'm talking about pricing/pcs etc. I was also thinking about doing ports for SNES, GENESIS and GBA/DS later on.

On a side note, what do you guys think would be the general reception by the public for such a game? This wouldn't be a small demo, but more of a full game. Generally positive and I could count for a couple of thousands of copies sold, or rather low? I know this would depend on the game itself, pricing etc. I do have some plans, but I'd rather get some opinions first.

Thanks!

 

I can't help you with your main question, but regarding your last question.
Most likely if the game doesn't suck, is nicely packaged and has nice artwork and has a little bit of advertising, you will sell a couple of hundred units.

There are actually dozens of homebrew games getting physical releases on all types of consoles, but they are produced in very low numbers ( 50 - 100 ) units is very common.

If the game is as you describe, I would recommend you to produce 200 units and if there is more demand, then produce more.

 

Licensing issues (Sony "wobble" protection; you might get around the Saturn one by using a different optical pattern (no Sega logo) with the same/similar bitstream) are very probable, but even puting that aside: pressed discs require a glass master, which is quite expensive. I'd estimate the break-even point is at around at least one thousand copies. Think you'll sell that much?

edit: Just looked up some prices, saw "normal" (as in, no security stuff) discs go for ~$840/1000 copies. Not sure how much extra security would be, but $.80/disc isn't too bad actually, even selling off only a quarter of those would be a decent net profit.

 

I was thinking of a kickstarter, it can seriously help blow up a campaign. Premium packaging would be one of the main selling points. I'm just asking about technical stuff, licensing and these topics.

 

If you're trying to sell a disc that's unlicensed and defeats copy protection - the short answer is don't do it. Old as the systems may be, there are legal implications and Sony/Sega/whoever COULD technically sue you. Got a good lawyer experienced in software and hardware IP?

 

There is a pressed dreamcast game coming out soon it was funded on kickstarter some RPG type game..
Find the people who made it and ask them what legal hurdles they had too overcome..

 

I guess they just pressed regular CD, not GD-ROM, so no legal hurdle.

 

Of course there's a legal hurdle. They're circumventing the copy protection and it's unlicensed.

 

Provided they write their own game and don't include copy protection there will be no copy protection to bypass.
Producing unlicensed games was pretty much settled in the early 80's with the Atari/Activation case.
Doesn't mean someone with deep pockets wouldn't sue. This is the most significant legal hurdle in any case. Since Sega is broke it's probably not an issue.

 

The copy protection is built into the hardware. They would, technically, have grounds to sue for publishing a game without licence and defeating the copy protection in the hardware. Whether they actually would sue is a different matter... and yes, there have been games released on several formats in such a manner.

 

I'm not saying to do it or not do it, but how does Datel get away with all their unlicensed discs then? They don't sell in small quantities, either.

 

Datel have been in court quite a few times

 

There's no cracking involved with DC, you just use the system as it is without modifying anything in the console, no modchip, no cracking, nothing, just use a system where they forgot to close some doors. Too bad for them, but since you can play the game without modifying the console, we are in legal area. Throw in antitrust issue (something Datel used many times to win) and you're safe both from the law itself and from the deep pockets white collars.

 

Datel wins (or the case is dropped) because the law is firmly on their side. The right to produce third party products is well establish. So is the right to not have this right hampered by abuse of trade secrets/design patents/DMCA/etc laws and other anti competitive tactics.

With the DC they didn't even forget to close the door. They intentionally left it open. They'd be laughed out of court if they tried to claim someone bypassed their non-copy-protection.

 

You can't reproduce the PS1 protection system on a CD-R, and if you want to reproduce it using pressed disc, you will need to have a reaaally good friend working at the pressing factory, so you 'could' try to reproduce the protected wooble from an original disc.
Minimal production for pressed disc is about 300. (due to glass master cost)
I released a game for PS1 with box, manual, and color printed Black CD-R, to make it as close as an original game, I produced 20 CD, and In about one year, I sold 15 so far ... (even at cheap price)
The problem is, people don't really want to buy a game if it requires a modchip or a boot cd.
So selling homebrew games for ps1 or sega saturn is really not a good idea.
I went for the Dreamcast instead. (see my website for my releases)

 

Where's the law that says you need a license to publish software for any particular platform?

Pre-DMCA that is absolutely not true and has been settled in court in different ways, but now post-DMCA we're looking at a whole different ballgame.





As for Dreamcast titles, that's completely different--the Dreamcast specifically has a different mechanism for booting software from CD-ROM that excludes the copy protection whereas the mechanism for booting software from GD-ROM still has the copy protection (based off of the security ring just like the Saturn). This is because Sega allowed Japanese music albums to include Dreamcast-bootable extras on their CDs in a format called MIL-CD. All Dreamcast homebrew software and pirate discs use the MIL-CD format instead, so they don't have to circumvent the hardware copy protection.

 

I guess that the trouble comes from:
1. using their licensed tools and libraries, without a valid license (meaning that they were illegally procured).
2. including their logo/copyright message (which is unfortunately used in some systems to block out unlicensed games).

 

Well, if they are using tools and libraries as the op mentioned, then yes. However, I would guess most homebrew published games do not use the original development kit. It is certainly not the case for all Dreamcast homebrew published games, which use the freely licensed KallistiOS library started by Dan Potter and currently maintained by Lawrence Sebald.

There is legal precedent in unlicensed publishers' favor in this situation. Sega already tried this technique with the Genesis, and they ultimately lost on appeal in Sega v. Accolade when Accolade reverse-engineered and used Sega code to display a trademark/license message on their unlicensed game cartridges. Because Accolade's use of this tiny code was not considered to affect Sega's market for games, did not constitute a large portion of any of Sega's works, and was used for a legitimate and non-exploitative reason, it was considered that this fell under fair use.

Sega did still go on to require the trademark/license screen for the Saturn and Dreamcast. In the Dreamcast scene specifically, Jacob Alberty rewrote and freely released the bootstrapping code to contain as little of Sega code as required to run your own software, so it should be considered that any remaining code would fall under the fair use clause.