SCAMMER: ElementZero [Or why I can't use Paypal anymore]

Ok so I'm finally going to leave this feedback and hopefully a warning to others. It took me a while to finally not be calm enough to do eave feedback about this. I appologize for taking so long and hope nobody else in the community as been scammed.

As some of you know at one point I had an XNA xbox with the XNA plate on the front. I offered it for sale to ElementZero who I had seen listing want to buys on the forums. I'm going to list the PMs which we went back and forth on which should mostly tell the story. It is probably missing some of my sent items since the forums don't seem to save that by default. I'll also list a few warnings/tips at the end to help others avoid this.

First contact was on 07-03-2012

ElementZero
"Hey
You still selling the stress kit? "

I'm not sure why I took so long getting back to him but I saw that he had mentioned he was looking for one so finally responded with this.

Teancum
"Hi I have an XNA Blue kit I've been planning on selling it's in great shape. Let me know if you want to know more."

ElementZero
10-14-2012
"I'd like to see a picture first, with name and today's date. Just to make sure... I was once scammed and not repeating that mistake ever again. " <--ironic mentioning he was scammed before.

Teancum
"I would do the same thing if some random guy asked me if I wanted to buy one. I'll take pics tonight."

ElementZero
10-14-2012
"Alright, I look forward in hearing from ya again."

ElementZero
10-14-2012
"I'm interested. Tell me your payment method and we have a deal. "

Teancum
10-14-2012
"I was planning on $2000 + S/H as Paypal Gift. Where would this be shipping to?"

ElementZero
10-14-2012
Price is alright, willing to pay just a tiny bit more for secure shipping and tracking number. I live in Montreal, Canada.

Teancum
10-14-2012
I'm open to other payment options as well. Trying to figure out what the safest way to go would be. Also do you have a PSU?

ElementZero
10-14-2012
Yes I own an XDK so I do have 213w PSU.

Teancum
10-14-2012
Ok International shipping with tracking get's a little tricky. I'm thinking Fedex may be the way to go let me see if I can get a shipping quote.

ElementZero
10-14-2012
Well you do that and let me know. My previous kit was shipped with FedEx so that will be alright.

Teancum
10-14-2012
What's your postal code?

ElementZero
Postal code is H1H2W2

ElementZero
Hey can I ask you something. How come this kit has the XNA logo? I thought they were only for showcasing in events like GDC, CES, etc

Teancum
I honestly have no idea. I was just reading that in the other thread. I lucked out and got these from a guy off Craigslist. To him the xboxes he was selling didn't play retail games so weren't worth as much.

ElementZero
Wow! Anyway let me know when you are ready...

Teancum
Ok I punched it all in to Fedex and it spit out the number $110. That was with the value at $2000.00 I believe that includes insurance but will have to double check. Also not sure how customs are in canada you may get dinged with a tax when it arrives as well, but The total would be $2110 shipped via fedex with tracking.

ElementZero
Alright. The last kit I bought was about $1200 didn't had to pay anything. You shipping from what state?

Teancum
Good to hear. Shipping from Utah.

ElementZero
So it's settled? Tell me when you're ready so I can transfer the money

Teancum
Sounds good. Send $2110 as Paypal gift to [[[Redacted my Email]]] . I'll have it in the mail either tomorrow or Tuesday.

ElementZero
It's done.. confirm when you get it. total amount sent was $2115

Teancum
Received. Will do my best to get it in the mail tomorrow. Thanks

ElementZero
Please give me your word you'll do so. $2000 is not a small amount of money. And you have my thanks for selling this gem to me.

Teancum
No messages saved

ElementZero
Okay i was waiting for you to reply

I'm not home in the Mornings , so I'll leave a person responsible for the package :
Edward Faria
4120 Street Larin Appt 7

Montreal,Quebec H1H 2W2Canada

ElementZero
Did you get the address?

10-15-2012
Teancum
Yes got the address. Just boxing it up now so it will be ready.

ElementZero
Any news?

Teancum
Wasn't able to get it in the mail today. I ended up being stuck at work a little longer than I would have liked and the fedex place was closed. Tomorrow I'll use some of my lunch time to get it mailed and will update you with info as soon as I have it.

ElementZero
Okay thank you!

10-16-2012
ElementZero
Hey, sorry to bother you but any news? I'm planning on going out of town next week, Friday to be precise and I want to make sure this thing arrives here as soon as possible.

Teancum
Still no news yet still working and was thinking about a late lunch. It will get into the mail today. I imagine the worst case is you have to talk to your fedex guy but will update you later today.

ElementZero
What do you mean about talking to the FedEx guy?

Teancum
Ok your kit is in the mail. Tracking number is 8729 0239 2740

It ended up costing an extra $30 since I opted for the two day shipping. The Fed Ex Lady said it should arrive Thursday. I also found out for future reference that FedEx will hold international packages 10 days before sending them back.

Any way I packed the kit in the toughest box I had and declared the items value as $2000. Let me know when it's in your hands and if theres any damage. Thanks

ElementZero
Hey thank you very much for everything. I will gladly let you know once it gets here.

10-20-2012
Teancum
All right tracking is showing it as delivered. How does everything look? If you could leave feedback here I would greatly appreciate it.
http://www.assemblergames.com/forums...cum-s-Feedback

ElementZero
Hey sorry been busy preparing the trip that I forgot to check here. Everything is in neat condition, I really like the kit. Thanks very much for everything. I will leave feedback


Oddly enough he did leave feedback.

Seems like a perfectly normal transaction right? Well lets fastforward.

Fastforward to 02-05-13 I get a not from Paypal.
"The sender asked the credit card company to reverse the payment made to you The sender says he or she doesn't recognize this payment. The credit card company needs additional information from you about this transaction."

You'll notice this is about 5 months after wards. The max amount of time you can go is 6 months for a chargeback on a credit card.

Sender's name: Natasha Fernandez
Sender's email: natashafer18@yahoo.es


And this is where my mistake came in. I wanted a gift payment? Why at the time it seemed like the best choice for everyone. Basically I get a pain free payent and we save some fees everyone wins right? Well the mistake comes in that since it's a gift payment you don't get any address from Paypal. Now granted there were lots of warning signs for this that I should have been able to spot I delivered the package

to Edward Faria but payment was sent from Natasha Fernandez. I sent Paypal the shiping receipt but the address in the account did not match so they ruled in favor of the buyer. This is one of the many flaws in Paypal that is exploited by scammers. What I ended up doing was reporting my card stolen to the bank. This resets the card number, and your routing number. This makes it so Paypal can't take the

money straight out of your account. This also puts you on a list for them to call and possibly sue. They have sent debt collection letters which I've countered with validation letters and that is where I'm at so far.


Steps to stay safe (eventually I plan to do a right up) on Paypal

1. Make sure that you always sell as goods, and in the invoice clearly state what it is that you are selling.

2. Always ship to the address listed in Paypal.

3. Ship with signature confirmation (Preferrably to be signed by the person listed on Paypal)

4. If you sell frequently charge an extra 5% to cover fraudlent activity (especially if you ebay) This way when something does go wrong you are covered. This is how most normal businesses operate.

5. Beware of international purchases. I know some of the international buyers will hate this. But as a seller an international new buyer is just too risky often times. There is almost no way to recover money. Had this guy been in the USA I could have sued him in small claims court.

6. Beware of new members. Make sure that you are following everything listed above. A brand new international member might be too risky. I understand everyone has to start somewhere but if you can't afford to lose the money don't perform the sale.


It took me a long time after this to stop being angry. Which is part of the reason why this post took so long. Thinking about this was a huge source of stress. (sometimes to the point of making me physically ill). It took a while for me to get to the point where I could even talk about it. Let me know if you have any questions I may remember more about this later.

 

you should censor personal information. Id remove his mailing address...

 

I personally won't sensor his personal info based on what he did. However I understand if the mods decide to do so.

 

His registered e-mail address seems to be a completely different name from the supplied name, too.

I think the fact it was a .es (Spanish) PayPal address but shipping to Canada should have been a warning sign, really. It's a shame it is so far in the past, or I'd say report it to the Police / IC3. I guess you could still try talking to them, but there's no guarantee they can help now:

http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx

 

Wow that sucks! D: Thanks for the warnings.

 

Thanks for the heads up. I guess the market place rules should state somewhere that you are not allowed to accept paypal gift payments in the future. To be honest, everyone that has accepted gift payments in the past could have been easily scammed in the same way.

 

I never pay by gift, unless it's a member here I know quite well.

 

This is placing more risk on the buyer, not all sellers are virtuous.

The risk should be equally split, precautions taken as necessary. Even for a transaction over the internet, I would imagine one of substantial value should have sufficient communication and communicative tools provided for integrity.

Facebook profile/contact number/proof of address/etc. would be items I would request as a seller. I would also scrutinise any payments coming from alternative names to the postage address and name personally.

 

Thanks for the warning, but even if you had his paypal address, the most you could do was compare that one to the one he gave you through mail/pm, right? Or do the fees grant some kind of fraud protection? Would it be any different if you sent him an invoice through paypal (where fees apply I suppose)? Or s/he could still claim unrecognized payment?
There's the delivery confirmation signature but I guess that alone (ie, without an invoice) is no much of a legal use but can't it be used as a sign of good faith (guess you'd have to prosecute him though).

And lastly I'm not quite clear about the scam. Was it a stolen credit card (I find it odd since it'd be associated with his paypal account,right? or can he make a one time payment without associating a cc?) or was a scheme involving the conscious act of a third person (the girl)?

Well, good luck and do no give up on at least presenting a charge. That's always my advice. That might help someone else in the future, at least.
As an international seller, shipping mostly overseas, I find some remarks very harsh but yeah, I do understand your frustration. I always ship in priority, tracked and signed mail but who knows I never feel completely safe.

 

Although I understand this mindset. We currently have an environment that requires no due diligence in sale. When online commerce really started to take off there was no paypal. You had ebay you had feedback (which was useful) and the buyer had to judge if this would be a good transaction. You sent a USPS Money order which was considered the safest form of payment. You picked up your money order send the money order to the seller and keep a receipt in a folder somewhere. As a Seller you received the money order went to the USPS and they give you cash for the money order. You mail your product off with tracking. If the Buyer was unsatisfied then they could file a claim with the USPS (at which point a postal inspector supposedly goes over the case admittedly I'm not sure what exactly happens here). This is the most equal footing that buyer/seller could hope for, but this has been destroyed by paypal and credit card laws. Ebay has been working on an environment that competes with amazon they want people to have a click and buy experience that is quick and easy, but they don't want to take the responsibility when things go wrong. So they leverage the buyers they have to hold sellers in place.

The takeaway is as a buyer if you are uncomfortable with a transaction for a reason (for example a bank transfer) walk away. If you think you'll need recourse in this case or are worried about the transaction then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. When I sell I try to make the condition really clear and what they will be getting. I do this almost to a painful degree. If it doesn't show up in that condition I work with you to make it right.

Basically the address would have improved my position for the claim. A chargeback would have been less likely to work had Paypal been able to present the address of the customer, and a signature of the customer on the card of the paypal credit card account. Now nobody is sure how much Paypal actually fights these but my chances would have improved dramatically at that point. My guess is that he had a friend charge it for him and reverse the charge later for him.

I new some would be frustrated with my international remarks, and I can say I've had plenty of good international transactions. The main thing to keep in mine is that as a US seller there is no recourse for your with an international seller. There are lots of international members here I would sell to without any worry (well if I could still accept paypal) I still do lots of deals with Kiff for example and he is in the UK.

 

Looks to me this happens, 5 months later he breaks up with his GF, she does the chargeback on the credit card that happened to be hers when he made the charge. Or planned scam from the beginning with a stolen credit card.

 

Last activity was 1 day ago, what does he have to say for himself? (Probably nothing).

 

I think ASSEMbler logged into his account to check the chat logs for Teancum. Real login was some time ago, I believe.

 

That really sucks. As I am an international buyer and ive made plenty of purchases over paypal (almost always by gift) it pisses me off someone does something like this and really ruins it for us honest fellas. Hope it works out for you somehow

 

LOL

 

Uhh... it's only taken you nearly three years to realize that's his name.....

Anyway, let's not take this off topic.

 

Most people have requested gift payments, I usually just gift people as I assumed it was the safest method. It's unfortunate what happened here, but it's good to know that goods payments offer seller protection that gift payments can not. I think I'll make more of an effort to see how the seller wants to do things from now on, not that they have anything to worry about from me, but it's better they feel more comfortable with their sale. It's just a shame there's nothing you can do about it; perhaps talking to the police might still be an option as regardless of what happened, be it a stolen credit card or simply a stolen console, someone somewhere down the line was still a victim.

 

Kiff give me a shout. A have a cool gamecube demo

 

Wrong thread buddy, Try to private message him.