SCART to HDMI upscaling - thoughts

I have used a SCART > HDMI upscaler on my Unity project, and happy enough with the picture quality and when on 720p mode the lag is ok, 1080p and there is more noticeable lag, so tend to keep it on 720p mode on my 1080p television.

I have spent some time looking at YouTube videos and reviews on loads of websites and there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Question is really simply if it is worth changing the upscaler I have or not, as to if there would be any benefit in image quality and less lag.

People rate the XRGB mini Framemeister however the price is high, some reviews i've read say no lag however others say there is, the video quality compared to cheap Chinese upscalers seems similar pretty much, there is an issue with Japanese SCART instead of Euro SCART, seems to need a remote control to work rather than just switch on and reviewers say they find it hard to justify the prices of a Framemeister vs a cheap alternative.

Also on cheap Chinese ones, some say little lag, others more so.

it also seems that even with the Framemeister, the model and make of your television makes a difference to compatibility and lag as to how they encode, so the best system can be shitty on one television but great on another. Also, i'm not a fan of scanlines, which is something that model is good at.

This is the issue. I've a decent 65" 1080p HD Samsung television, so a good make; however although it has various inputs like HDMI, component and composite (!), it does not have S-video and the RGB input plug is not compatible with the RGB>SCART adaptor supplied with the television so I can't get that.

Even SCART > component is expensive as a converter, and also prone to not suffering from lag.

It makes it very hard to know if it is worth either getting another Chinese upscaler or not bothering, as there is a small amount of lag on current setup, although not that noticeable, would be worth throwing a little money at an alternative but I don't want to spend money and find there is no real benefit. On one hand, would be nice to get an improvement however not wanting to spend much and also not wanting to buy something and how have a benefit afterwards. I'm probably being picky anyway. Image quality is good with the cheapie Chinese one i'm using.

Thoughts / experiences?

I've spent a fair bit of time researching as you have probably gathered, however no further forward than where I started!

 

Does your component input support low resolutions? If so, maybe a simple Scart to Component cable will do it?

 

Try to find out your tv response time. Just because its a samsung doesn't mean it will have a good response time.

 

I don't know how to get a TV response time. Whatever it is though i've no intention of changing the television for a few years!

No idea if the component input supports low resolutions, however SCART supports RGB not Component so needs an expensive adaptor not a cable (YPbPb is component) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video

 

What is your exact tv model.

 

If you have the same scaler I have then I can say for a fact that an upgrade to a better upscaler would be worth it. The one I have and a lot of the upscalers on the market don't process 240p correctly. While they do accept it, the quality isn't the same as if it was ran through a proper upscaler that processes 240p correctly.

OzOnE is making an upscaler similar to the XRGB mini but it should be much cheaper and have more input and output options. His uses an FPGA board and custom software. If all goes according to plan, it should be released in a couple months.

 

In getting a new type cheap scart scaler in hopefully soon (scart to Hdmi 1.3), even has ratio control!
Outputs 720p and 1080p @ 60hz or 50hz

 

OzOne's unit - sounds interesting. You got a link to what he's making please?

 

He talks a bit about it in the Dreamcast thread about his other project, which takes the digital video signals consoles produce and converts them to HDMI. His main thread is here and he talks about it a bit more in it towards the end of the thread.

 

If people are comparing the Framemeister against cheap clones and claim that the image quality is similar, they have no idea what they are talking about The Framemeister is by far the very best choice when it comes to upscaling retro consoles to your HD TV.
However I would hold of getting one for the time being. Marqs on Shmups forum is also building an upscaler and it seems extremely promising, and will in some ways surpass the Framemeister for sure. It will have much less lag and no color subsampling. But on the other hand it won't be nearly as versatile and most likely won't work with consoles that outputs a weird refresh-rate (Neo Geo MVS), but that will mostly depend on your TV if these systems will work or not, not the upscaler itself.

The Framemeister has a lag of 23ms when upscaling progressive sources. Possibly more with interlaced. The issue with Japanese RGB21 vs European SCART is easily solved by using a different adapter. You should be able to make one yourself with one hand tied behind your back

Here is some info on Marqs' scan doubler:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52158

 

Yes, easy to rewire a JAP SCART to Euro one but I don't fancy paying £200 for the Framemeister plus import taxes (ie about £260 ($395)). I'm only looking at paying something up to about £40-£50 max, and that's if it's a good unit otherwise stay as is.

I don't have the video links still as was ploughing through what could find on YouTube at the time, but one guy was testing (not sure how) his Framemeister on lag and was claiming it was close to zero, someone else compared to a cheap Chinese one and had both videos running at the same time and claimed where the same, the first guy tested on loads of different TV's and his Moms Samsung was the best; which shows the TV also has a part to play in the results.

Problem is the only way to know what is actually the best is if someone had most of the units available and did an unbiased review, however could not find such on the net.

When these new units come out you refer to, i'd be grateful if someone could point me to their link as i'd be interested in getting one. I don't want to have to use a remote control, just like now have it come on when it gets power, and work.

Also, one thing that I don't like with my cheapie Chinese upscaler are the artifacts/inaccuracies with low-res N64 games like Super Mario 64. Games with better resolution on the N64 are far better but still not perfect. Hopefully one of these newer units mentioned in development will be better with scaling low-res games as well as low lag. That would be awesome.

If I get one from one of these developers, i'd be quite happy to make a video to compare the differences, it might even help them sell more possibly.

 

I've read online that a lot of HDTVs on the market actually support as low as 240p over HDMI. It's even in the official HDMI standards. Maybe your TV could do that with a RGB SCART to HDMI converter that doesn't do scaling? That might eliminate lag too as there is no scaling.

 

That's bullshit I'm not saying that you are lying, but anyone who told you that a cheap chinese Scart to HDMI upscaler produces the same picture quality as the Framemeister is quite frankly full of shit If someone really doesn't see the difference between the Framemeister and a cheap Chinese upscaler, they either need their eyesight tested, or they have their TV calibrated retardedly.
Even if someone was able to create an exact clone of the Framemeister it would still end up costing quite a bit more than these cheap china upscalers.

The Framemeister is not lag free. I can tell you that much for sure. But often it's faster using the Framemeister than connecting the retro consoles to your TV directly. The reason for this is that most modern TVs are rubbish at processing 240p. They see the consoles signal as interlaced and therefore introduces deinterlacing in the processing. This takes time and adds lag, not to mention that it fucks up the picture in numerous ways.

And you're right. The TV does play a huge part in the total lag you're getting. The Framemeister is 23ms when processing progressive sources. But most TVs adds at least 30-40ms even in game mode (which you should always be using whenever you play games). It's therefore very important that you buy a TV with as low lag as possible (some has as little as 6-8ms lag) if you want to use external video processors, because it all adds up.

I have linked to to you at least once before:
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de
Fudoh has tested out pretty much all affordable and most crazy expensive picture processing devices available. It doesn't get anymore objective than his site

 

The Framemister costs about $400 AUD
When people spend that much, they tend to defend their purchase, as so not to feel like they where ripped off....

This is something that happens a lot in PC gaming, "Pixel-fapping" as I like to call it, people spend heaps of time making the game look 'perfect' and then don't even play or at the very least enjoy the game!

I know a guy who spent hours modding Skyrim on pc with texture packs, I asked him how many hours he's played, the response.. " dunno maybe an hour, I got bored..."

The imperfections in cheap scalers seem to be only apparent when it's pointed out! Who gives a flying fuck if a device that costs $350 more can make the pixels slightly clearer! Just enjoy the damn game and stop getting so worked up over pointless stuff !

ANY form of RGB upscaler is going to look better than the normal standard (composite), this should be the goal..

Using an external upscaler is going to be better than letting the pannel do the job, modern TV's are intended to only be fed HD video, composite and scart are only there for compatibility, a selling point to dumb consumers so they don't have to buy a new DvD player as well as a $500 Tv. Feed the TV what it can handle (with minimal processing) ie 1080p..

The Framemister is good at what it does and I am going to get one.....





PS: most TV's shouldn't do any processing when in VGA mode too if you want to go that route and should support 1920*1080

 

That's not at all what I'm doing. To be honest I can't help but be a little offended by your comment :/

No, the difference is quite clear. Most cheap upscaling devices will also incorrectly handle the signal as 480i, which causes lag, deinterlacing, motion interpolation and loss of drop shadows just to name a few problems.
If you're not aware of these problems the cheap solution might suit you fine, but you will notice the improvements instantly by using a proper scaler.

Please have a look at the link I posted earlier where Fudoh does a great job of explaining the problem most processors have with 240p signals. Happy reading

? But you just indirectly called the Framemeister a rip-off and claimed that the difference between it and the much cheaper alternatives are negligible. I don't understand your logic
I can only encourage that you do buy a proper upscaler for retro consoles, but as said earlier, it might be better to wait a few months and see how the upcoming (cheaper) alternatives turns out

You're right that VGA inputs generally was faster than HDMI. However most TVs these days doesn't have this input anymore :/