SuperCIC PAL/NTSC oddness

I've done the SuperCIC mod on my PAL SNES by following these instructions, with pin4 set to GND so it doesn't switch after 9 seconds:
http://wolfsoft.de/wordpress/?p=603

It all seems to be working fine with the following carts:

JAP Pilotwings, JAP Kouryuki:
Boots in both PAL/NTSC, automode correctly sets pin12 to GND. The only difference is that in NTSC mode the picture appears shifted down the screen but TV still reports PAL.

PAL Killer Instinct, PAL Mario Kart, PAL Unirally:
All boot in both PAL/NTSC, automode sets pin12 to +5v, again in NTSC mode the picture is shifted down the screen but is still reported as PAL by my TV.

So far, so good, now here's where it gets strange (bearing in mind I think my TV is PAL only):

JPN Pebble Beach: New Tournament
NTSC mode = Boots fine, pin12 is GND, TV reports PAL but picture is shifted down.
Automode = same as NTSC
PAL mode = Pin12 is +5v, no signal/picture on TV(?) but if I switch back to NTSC mode I get a "This game is not designed for your Super Famicom/SNES" message. This seems odd to me because I don't get a signal my PAL TV can display when the PPU's are set to PAL?

Ok, here's another one.

PAL Stunt Race FX
NTSC mode = Boots to "This game is not designed for your system", pin12 is GND, TV reports as PAL.
PAL mode = Pin12 is +5v but no signal/picture on TV. If I switch back to NTSC mode I can see that the game has booted OK.
Automode = Same as PAL mode.

PAL Vortex
NTSC mode = Boots and displays fine, pin12 is GND, TV reports as PAL
PAL mode = Pin12 is +5v, but no signal on TV? If I switch to NTSC mode I get a picture.
Automode = Same as PAL mode

What on earth is going on? It seems that somehow some PAL games are booting as NTSC whereas others are booting as PAL? A simpler explanation would be that my TV can only display NTSC and reports it as PAL, but this doesn't explain why some games work and some don't.

Any ideas?

 

Hi Sonny,
i suspect your TV doesn't like the switching that the superCIC performs. Seeing that your console is PAL your TV will detect the colour mode as PAL even when is 60Hz.
Some games will come up with the region warning message as you have disabled the 9 second wait time to switch from the native Hz of the game cart to your selected cart. the 9 seconds is there to bypass the region warning as the game will start in the carts native Hz.

i have found a lot of newer LCD's and Plasma's are too smart for their own good when using a SuperCIC mod. I still have an old 80cm CRT for all my games and has no issues with switching of Hz

 

That doesn't explain why PAL games such as Stunt Race FX and Vortex don't display properly on a PAL TV when booted up in PAL mode. I've checked this on an LCD and CRT and they both behave the same. Those very same games would boot without any issue before I did the mod.

To me, it seems like the mod only works correctly for NTSC systems rather than PAL.

 

Have you tried a PAL system with the ordinary 50/60hz mod to compare?

 

Works fine on all my pal consoles.

 

I'm wondering what I've ballsed up then or if it's just that I've been unlucky in the carts I've tried. I'll do a bit more investigating and post back.

 

I've had interesting results with the SuperCIC. The first install I did for someone either flat out didn't change the SNES into PAL output or my Sony Trinitron somehow supports PAL in color via composite. The LED changed color but that doesn't mean too much. The owner said it worked fine for him so you've got me.

 

I thought SuperCIC does not replace the color crystal.

 

It doesnt, it only does 50/60hz switching.

RGB or PAL will work, NTSC50 will cause problems.

 

As I see it there are two functions of the SuperCIC (please correct me if i'm wrong here):

1) to bypass/fool the system into allowing NTSC and PAL games to work on the same console, making it region free.

2) to automatically select between 50Mhz and 60Mhz modes.

Might seem a strange question but it isn't really - if you just wanted to have the SuperCIC just for region free, and incorporate a manual switch to select between the 50Mhz and 60Mhz modes, then would it just be a case of removing the connection to the SuperCIC's pin 12 and connecting that to ground/5v as the switch; or would you also need to do other changes on the SuperCIC chip wiring too?

Reason i'm asking is i'm likely to need to use my setup on different televisions, old CRT and also LCD, and they might not all work properly with auto-switch. Other reason is an old and battered SNES board i've done the mod on (the reset switch didn't work which tells you something of its condition) doesn't switch modes, and seems to flicker on some PAL games (I have a PAL system) but not on NTSC games; so a manual switch might make this old board usable. (I don't like to have to bin old boards if they can be fixed).

Thanks!

 

A physical switch does exactly the same as the supercic does - sets the 2 pins on the ppu to 5v or ground. There is no technical difference.

But as explained in PM - if the supercic is not getting the reset button signal - its doesnt know to switch modes.

If you are wanting to bypass the fact that the supercic cant detect reset and therefore cant switch modes - a manual switch should work just fine for getting 50hz in your case. also yes, its just the 1 pin, nothing else.

 

Well, after testing, found if I wire the 50Mhz/60Mhz wires directly to 5v and not to the SuperCIC chip, strangely my PAL games worked without glitches (!) and the NTSC games are still fine. I put (!) because i'd have expected them to boot in 50Mhz mode only however seem to boot fine straight to 60Mhz.

Found the issue with the Super Mario RPG game - pin 1 on the SA1 chip in the game cart had lifted; took a while as the chip pin is super tiny but managed to lift the pin, and solder a wire to the trace; and the game works fine now. Wasn't a fun soldering job and given the cost of this rare game, I didn't relish the probability of bridging the pins on the chip and killing the game! Anyway, it works, so i'm happy!

Going to test the SNES board on my other (newer) televisions and see if I get the same good results. Anyway, i'm happy with the SuperCIC; the fact that the SNES board seems to have an issue with the reset not working (must be something faulty on the board) doesn't matter if PAL and NTSC games work fine on my board at 60Mhz mode (5v applied in other words).

 

The game cant override the fact you have hardwired the console to 60hz

Most games will work, but a few like super metroid (pal) wont - as it detects you are running in 60hz rather than 50hz it expects.

 

Thought you'd be interested to know that for some reason it does work with Super Metroid (PAL) with only 60Mhz. I tried about 65 games of which about 5 are NTSC and the rest PAL (my Mario RPG NTSC game works on unmodded PAL console I noticed now, so technically a PAL game now); *every one* worked, although about 1/3 of them I had to open the cart up and use a pencil eraser to remove the tarnish from the cart traces. Just thought i'd post the fact that Super Metroid PAL did boot fine! ;o) Happy days!

Quality of output onto a modern(ish) television leaves a bit to be desired, hoping RGB might look a bit nicer.

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.kelly4/snesPAL60Hz.htm

here is a good list to decide which PAL games will just refuse to play in 60 hz if your SNES is started in 60 hz mode.

My PAL SNES is modded to 60 hz permenantly, so i get PAL60 on composite whether i use PAL or NTSC cartridges.
I haven't done extensive testing, but the previous owner said about 10% of PAL games will refuse to boot directly to 60 hz mode. No problem for me as i only use Super Game Boy now and it is fine with 60 hz.

If you have a TV which doesn't like PAL60, just get a RGB scart cable. In fact get a RGB scart cable in any case, as it is much better than composite.

 

Interesting link, thanks.

Games I tested were only with the introduction, originally I got flashing images on Super Mario World and Mario Kart as reported on that link, but when I removed the pin 12 and put that to 5v directly, the flashing went. Only game with slight screen flicker on the intro is Frogger, NTSC game; however when you get into the game it doesn't flicker.

Yes, going to RGB anyway, via my SCART output. I'd seen reports on other posts that you can tap of C-Sync off the BA6591AF chip, however looking on a couple of SNES motherboards I have (PAL) this chip doesn't appear to be anywhere, so will just use composite for C-Sync. On NTSC consoles, pin 3 is C-Sync, however on PAL units it's 12v line, which would damage your television! (hence unless anyone knows different, C-Sync on PAL is liable to be tapped off composite line).

 

@bacteria: Why are you trying to tap C-Sync? PAL SNES outputs RGB natively, just connect a PAL RGB SCART cable.

BTW 12V that you get from pin 3 of PAL SNES is connected to pin 8 of SCART and it changes the TV to AV SCART channel automatically when you power on the console. Why would it damage?

 

some modern lcd tvs do not like composite video as sync from N64's - so I assume hes going with that to see if it improves his picture on the snes.

 

I wasn't aware of that. I always thought pin 20 of scart would accept c-sync, composite video or luminance; it wouldn't matter.

 

Yeah, I do not understand the "why" of it. It shouldnt make any difference. But real world shows that it does.