ud's XBOX 360 RROD article (free mods inside!)

Having recently picked up a first gen. XBOX 360, I couldn't just set it up on my media rack and hope it didn't die. What to do? Modify it of course

This write-up was longer than I anticipated, but I think it says everything I want it to:

<!-- m -->http://therealundamned.blogspot.com/2009/06/preventing-xbox-360-rrod.html

-ud

 

You could reduce this entire article down to a single statement of fact, that the original 360 heat sink & air flow design was inadequate. The hastily issued launch units constructed in China were substandard, often increasing the risk of damage, but the problem came bundled with the product due to Microsoft's design flaws.

The horizontal and vertical debate has been argued over and dismissed. If it were that simple you can bet your bottom dollar Microsoft would have long ago issued a statement explaining that the 360 should be kept horizontal and not vertical. I bet Microsoft wished it had been something so simple, but alas no!

The only reason I can find to store the unit horizontal is that you run the marginal risk that when you eject the DVD drawer with a disc in it, the disc simply falls out of the machine and could become scratched or damaged in the process. However that's about it.

You may scoff at articles that have been posted on the Internet on this subject. You may in fact point to one particular article as being more accurate or instructive, based primarily on the fact that the person being quoted allegedly worked for Microsoft. However several very interesting and very detailed pieces have been produced on this subject matter and the article quoted merely repeated a great many of those points.

For further, more in-depth and technical analysis you should look at spending a little more time going through industry articles, news agency publications. However simply reading through inexperienced 'user' reports shouldn't be dismissed as Microsoft initially denied there was a problem and it was the full measure of complaints coming from customers that led them to think again.

In your article you raise many of the same points most of the 'user' postings have discussed on a plethora of sites from day one of this whole debacle. I should know, I too was one of those disappointed with my launch 360 and subsequent discussions led on such sites as OXM & Xbox Scene.

Your article's headline states 'Preventing Xbox 360 RROD' (in older models), yet doesn't really give much assistance or in-depth clues as to preventative measures. You are assuming your modification will work and that is the end of it. Sadly, you never mentioned the steps that many users have taken in attempting to prolong the life-span of their beloved 360, such as water cooling (for example), many of which have little real effect or only eek out another few months of life from a faltering unit. I think if were as simple as you suggest, then Microsoft wouldn't have had such a costly time of things.

It would be shocking if indeed washers were all that were required from day one.

At present your unit is fully functional, you haven't proved that the fix actually works as such, merely that in applying washers you've not damaged it. I know several people with launch units that have survived, so you might have a good unit.

There are so many tricks and tips that it gets utterly frustrating when in the vast majority of instance your beloved 360 is simply BER (Beyond Economical Repair).

You could have also mentioned previous attempts, such as the 'towel method' which I have actually used in the past. It was successful, but short lived as the problem persisted.

There were even suspicions that some of the Microsoft updates were not exactly helping, plus certain games titles were just too much for the system to handle. I'd leave those subjects to more experience and technically minded souls, however I did document on this site (and OE confirmed that a friend's early build 360 suffered) after an MS update left what can only be described as 'Fairy' washing up liquid like distortion to the image on screen.

Inevitably that unit died despite numerous attempts. Again, if I recall OE's friend had to purchase a new unit too. For the record, that was around the time of the launch of 'Gears of War' and it was this title which first threw my early build 360 into disarray.

You explain the clamps and how they work, which is fair enough, yet the basis of this article seems to be that you wish people to read the manual, keep the unit lying flat and use some washers. The modification is so simple it might just work, and I wish you all the best with it.

I think you might wish to expand on your article and look at further sources. You are a good writer and explained a variety of aspects in a very accessible manner, so please do not feel that I am being overly critical.

I'm sure at present you might be fighting the urge to punch my lights out, but don't! I am not the world's most technically minded person either, yet you are on a website (Assembler) where a whole host of users pour over the most intricate data for fun! At times it can be scary as you just know someone will contradict you, but I personally feel it is worth happening as the best information comes from debate and discussion. Something that could be long held to be fact might actually have no basis.

You are looking at a particularly frustrating issue that has led to many Xbox 360 fans being bitterly disappointed and Microsoft not only losing billions in redevelopment & repairs, but face a huge amount of criticism from customers and the industry.

Saddest of all is that although you are discussing the problem as if it were merely limited to the early builds, the fact is that Microsoft have as yet failed to completely address the issue. It seems to just shift, re-deploying failure in new forms.

I love the 360 per se, but I am not a fan of the 360 design.

Keep writing and keep looking after that early build, however my advice is to have a retirement fund set aside!

 

Wow, thanks for the thorough review! :icon_bigg It can be frustrating when sometimes you only get comments like, "cool," "lame," and nothing objective.

Yeah, but that wouldn't have covered my modification.

Dismissed by who and on what basis?

Links please. I'm honestly at a loss as for finding solid info on the topic.

Heat sink mod + proper ventilation. Stated at the beginning of the article and then each point is addressed in detail. How could you possibly miss that (having thoroughly read it of course)?

You just said those steps have little real effect. Why should I be obligated to discuss them?

Re-read the heat sink portion of my article. You have to bore holes in the chassis so that the x-clamps are in no way attached as they were from the factory. The washers are only a finishing touch to keep the clamps from popping off the heat sink screws. Either you don't know the 360 very well or you didn't read my article very well.

I never say the issue is limited to earlier builds. The only place I mention earlier builds is when I tell people that the heat sink mod is not for later models with 3 heat sinks (if you wish to know why, I can go into gory technical detail for you). You assume I'm saying later models don't need fixing. Your assumption was wrong.
-ud

 

I recall the days when you looked forward to buying a console, a single time to keep forever. Alas, whatever the cause behind this matter it is evident by empirical statistics and basic economic principles that Microsoft would have already addressed the issue if it were as simple as what users often suggest.

The fact alone that Microsoft has yet to prevent even the latest models from showing signs of bad architecture leads one to believe that the issue is more serious than just faulty parts and bad workmanship. I m stating the obvious by saying that the design is natively flawed but that is all that's important until they re-evaluate the shell and/or components.

It's a great exercise to debate and argue about what can cause such an established console to fail repeatedly but in the end you're just best off with a one-liner advice:

wait till they completely redesign it

That should cover both the technical and casual individuals with an actual solution, and perhaps lead to people actually holding back from buying a 360, hopefully making the company realize that if they want to grow they have to make a reliable product.


Prevention is the best cure and all of the solutions and hypotheses are the analogue of a poorly documented fatal disease.

PS: considering how all people I know with an XBOX have ran into problems at some point or another I m almost convinced that Microsoft are abusing this fact to inflate sales numbers as a sort of a beneficial marketing side-effect to a real problem, a knack that seems to set the XBOX 360 considerably higher than it's real dominance in the market, albeit having a fair share of quality titles.

 

Okay, you've not dug very deep if that was the only technical article you could find.

As I stated in the other thread, it's no scoop and now passes into part of the 360's history. Everyone knew there were major problems with the hardware and when an article appeared suggesting it was from an inside source, well it was deemed the proof many had been looking for.

However, you should read Dean Takahashi's article here:
http://games.venturebeat.com/2008/0...istory-of-microsofts-video-game-console-woes/

He also wrote the excellent book "The Xbox 360 Uncloaked" with more than a hundred sources, some named, but others anon. It's incredibly detailed and you'll see that it goes into a great deal more depth than the article you mentioned and it's hugely more shocking.

The point I was making about early builds was that as Microsoft moved from one board revision to the next, the solutions shifted focus, just as the problem did. So, what might work for a particular board revision simply won't work on another. What might be a heat issue on one unit might be a dry solder joint on another.

The 360 design is the problem whether you stand it up-right, flat or at any angle you should desire. That's why the upright or lying down debate is over and done with - it simply doesn't make any difference. Feel free to argue the point until blue in the face, but the evidence is provided by the fact that 360 units go faulty no matter which way they are placed.

Feel free to simply Google 'Xbox 360 upright or flat' and you'll find many different opinions, most without any factual evidence to back up their claims.

The one fact that stands out in this is that Microsoft have warned user about a host of problems and finally came clean about RROD, so I believe that if the operating position was problematic they'd have issued warnings by now or at the very least implemented an alternative casing design. None of which has happened.

When Microsoft decided to use the SKU they did (the exhale) the designers and engineers argued bitterly. It got worse still when an external HDD was added and air flow was further reduced. As the above article also explains the failure rate was very high, mainly due to poor parts, bad design and multiple underlying causes.

As they've altered the motherboard they've also changed the pattern of air flow internally, and even that is being attributed to a variety of secondary issues. However, it's not all about heat & air. I sometimes suspect Microsoft wished it had been so simple. After all an easy fix is a cheap one, and relatively quick.

Microsoft has paid dearly for their rushing into production. This was as a direct result of their V1 Xbox delays that Microsoft never truly recovered from.

Robbie Bach admitted back in 2007 that 11.6 million Xbox 360 units had been sold, and all of them were flawed. The design was the issue from day one.

I'm doubting whether Microsoft would have spent $2bn+ on repairing, replacing and upgrading millions of faulty Xbox units if the solution was as straightforward as cutting holes, changing position of the clamps and adding some washers.

They went somewhat further and had to go the whole hog of redesigning the architecture of their motherboards, chip sets and a whole host of other revisions several times.

I am sure you are aware that people have been tinkering and tampering with the heat sinks and X-clamps for years and sadly the solution doesn't appear to be as simple. What may work for a few days or months, inevitably reappears or a different fault springs up. Like the towel solution, hence me mentioning it. In the end, it doesn't last as the problem was the design.

In suggesting that you mention other people's attempts to repair or safe guard their 360 units, I was again suggesting that you should warn people attempting your 'fix' that it is just like other alleged solutions. So far you have only proven that cutting holes into the motherboard & changing the clamp positions didn't do any damage rather than solved any real issues. It's rather a different thing than hailing your alleged solution a success!

Most Xbox 360 owners are resigned to the fact that there is very little that can be done that Microsoft haven't tried. I'd like to see Microsoft attempt a water cooled version of the unit. I'd buy it, especially if it were anything like Dan's one. :dance:

Anyway, I don't think you've fully understood the comments I was making, but never mind you have a more in-depth article to read through and perhaps take a bit more time to reconsider what you've written as I believe you have vastly over simplified the problem and offered nothing more than a means to tinker at the edges, which in effect people have been discussing on many boards and sites for absolutely ages.

I particularly liked this shameful f*** up!
http://www.ausgamestore.com/assets/images/xbox360/360-X-clamp-fix-big.jpg

My own trials and tribulations with a plethora of Xbox 360 units was posted on this very site a few years back. I'll repeat my point, and Barc0des - keep some cash aside for a replacement and irrespective of how logical you may feel your fix is, I wouldn't place too much faith in it.

 

There is no 'proper, aftermarket/3rd party fix' for the 360, so get over it.

...Just like Parris and Barcode explained.

The fact that Microsoft did the right thing and accepted that they made mistakes can only be a good thing, granted, the console needs a complete re-design, but Rome was never built in a day, hopefully they will get it right in the end *fingers crossed*

...I'm on my 7th console, each one has gone back to be repaired or replaced at no cost to me, so I've never really understood the fuss trying to fix 'em.

...Older generations of consoles that had 'known' faults always cost me dear to get fixed!

 

Pretty much all I got out of this were three things. Nothing spectacular or new.

1. Provide good ventilation (Horizontal positioning)

2. Do a washer fix on Xclamps

3. Hope it keeps from RROD, if RROD shit brix

-lllsondowlll

 

I've read that article before. Dean is a fair writer, but by way of protecting his "valued sources," he nullifies the strength of his article.

Hopefully it makes up for the lack of real references in that other article you linked to.

You still don't understand the modification! I am not changing the position of the clamps! I'm not going re-state the theory behind it, so if you want to speak with authority on why my fix is bad, please understand what the fix even is/does! And disregarding a fix for it's simplicity is foolish. Yes, the fix itself is simple, but the theory behind it is what makes it viable. Maybe I should put a caveat at the beginning of my article telling people that they should pass High School Physics before reading

In my article, I discuss the reason the traditional "x-clamp fix" fails. What other heat sink "tinkering and tampering" have you seen?

The towel trick doesn't perminently fix things because it's just reflowing some of the solder joints after the motherboard has most likely been warped from heat. At that point, even if it runs, it's in worse condition than when it came from the factory.

Maybe because my fix is not like other peoples solutions? Name any/every homebrew fix you can think of and I will tell you why it fails. My fix is perfectly sound from a theoretical/engineering standpoint.

You are correct that at this point in time, I cannot prove that my fix will prevent RROD indefinitely, as that of course requires indefinite time. However, my solution does solve a real issue. Microsoft's mounting scheme is flawed (therefore making the CPU/GPU even more vulnerable than if merely exposed to excessive heat). My mod fixes this. It is electro-mechanically sound and I'm not just throwing snake oil around like most "fixes" are.

I love it when people feel compelled to watermark their "amazing work" so that nobody will steal it :noooo:

I totally agree that the 360 is an inherently flawed animal. What I am stating is that there are measures which can be taken to un-cripple or alleviate some of those inherent flaws (to the point where RROD is scarcely an issue).
-ud

 

Whats your solution for the weak solder joints?

 

He means a rework station probably, but even I think that could still fail too.

 

Damned by faint praise I feel. He explains in great detail why the Xbox 360 was doomed to failure. Clearly the author was speaking to industry insiders and people directly involved in the development of the hardware. Due to the sensitive nature of NDAs and protection of identity, it is obvious that he's been guaranteed a great deal of genuine information with the caveat of non-disclosure.

I'm not entirely sure why you are prepared to believe the anonymous industry insider mentioned in the original article you herald as authentic & a "scoop", but perhaps because that article conveniently steers us in the direction of thought you wish to lead us, whilst dismissing the far more eloquently prepared, detailed argument put forward by Dean.

You make no mention of having read this article previously, and as you were looking for further reading with more information, then it stands to reason I should point you in it's direction. I'm surprised by your attitude and don't for a second agree that his article is any the poorer for having protected his sources.

Why not go buy yourself a copy and find out? You'll be doing yourself a huge favor and may even persuade yourself not to waste further valued time working on a solution to RROD. The solution is simple - buy another 360!

I completely understand your alleged solution, but thus far, even by your own admission you have not demonstrated that you have actually resolved RROD at all, period!

Simplicity is not the issue.

Most people who work on resolving hardware issues learn a great deal through trial and error. They test their theory, redefine it and then re-test in order to establish whether there is any significant improvement. This analysis forms the basis of establishing whether a theory pans out or not.

Look up Karmiloff-Smith. He has a hypothesis that it is inherently human to prefer an explanation, however flawed than to have no explanation at all. This is that in action.

Microsoft would have had banks of Xbox units undergoing a plethora of test conditions. They'd simply punish the poor motherboards until they died. This is the research that Microsoft put in, how much did you do?

If you have bought 100s of RROD units and you performed your alleged fix on the above units. Had you found that significantly higher numbers of units were brought back to life and for prolonged, reliable lengths of usage using your solution, then you might have people taking notice.

I know of friends of mine who've worked in console repairs for decades. They hate the 360. They simply feel it is the least reliable piece of shit ever conceived. They don't even bother trying these so called 'fixes'. They stacked the units up in great piles hoping that someone would stumble upon a workable, reliable solution and no one ever did. Those stacks dwindled as other parts were plundered.

Most of these guys won't event attempt a repair. Read OE, he knows what he is talking about.

Because I say your thinking on your solution is flawed, you claim that it's me who is simply foolish & ill educated. Go tell this to the plethora of Microsoft engineers who were pulled off almost every other Microsoft R&D gig to pour their collective experience & wisdom into achieving a solution to RROD.

You might question my abilities, but I am sure that you are not attempting to suggest that you stumbled upon a quick fix in your first attempt where the might of the best minds in the company actually responsible for building the unit failed miserably?

When you have finally found the ability to say 'Ah, shit maybe the weight of facts are stacked against me - back to the drawing board', rather than merely saying 'give me more stuff I can say is rubbish and doesn't work' or being critical of people offering their opinion, when in actual fact 3 people have now stated quite clearly that 'we all KNOW the other shit doesn't work', because we've been there, seen it, done it, tried it and read about it since 2005.

You've been offered some pretty concrete evidence and experience based opinion.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on this and feel I am not going to achieve much else raking over the same coals over and over. The first post said what all previous posts and posters have said, but you are determined to be right irrespective of a huge amount of information contradicting your assumption.

If we carry on it'll just descend into a verbal brawl in the virtual car park outside the non-existent car park over nothing in particular.

 

Well, unless you have a nice setup for re-flowing BGA's, there's not a whole lot you can do about the weak joints themselves. You can however relieve them of any unnecessary stress.

If the system is new, you can bet that the mother board is somewhat straight. If that is the case, and the chassis is somewhat straight, you may have a fairly uniform downward pressure on the CPU/GPU. Excessive heat from the GPU can actually warp the mother board around it. Well, being as the heat sink position never changes, yet the mother board has become warped, this means that downward pressure on the CPU/GPU is no longer spread uniformly. Combine that with weak solder joints and you are almost guaranteed a failure.

That is where my mod comes in :nod: The dynamic tension allows for deviations in the straightness of the mother board or even how parallel the CPU/GPU is to the mother board. The weak solder joints receive uniform pressure against the mother board. They are not being unnecessarily stressed like they are in a factory system.

Is it possible that some CPU's/GPU's are soldered so weakly there is no way to prevent them from dying? Yes. Just because they passed tests before they shipped does not speak for longevity. I work in electronic design and I've seen parts that work or don't work based purely on humidity and/or temperature. You send them somewhere else and they stop working! The weak solder joints on BGA's can be equally as tempermental. The best that can be done for the XBOX 360 is to guard it's weaknesses and the best ways I know how are outlined in my article.
-ud

 

My goodness, quelle suprise! I had a feeling you'd come back with that :nod:

 

well if words don't convince you, I m sure that in time your XBOX will.

 

Here is how I helped avoid modding my first generation 360. I built a small rectangular box that is roughly 1in wider and longer than the 360 and is about 5-6in deep. The 360 sits on fairly strong galvinized steel mesh.... the mesh is attached with washers and wood screws. I have 3 carriage bolts that help support the mesh aginst the weight of the 360 in a vertical stance.

I use 2 verry verry small squrril fans that are run off a 9v transformer and each fan also has a wired to run off of a 9 volt battery. I also guided the blower with a small duct-esque pieces of sheet metal to direct the airflow towards the 360 its self.

I would also like to mention that I designed this when I had a single overheating issuse with Oblivion. And I would like to report that I have not had a single over heating issue since I built the box.

Xeveniah Darkwind

 

Barc0de, you have 9000 posts? Good lord!

 

Undamned - I liked your write up even if no one else appreciated it...

That will teach you to share something...!

Nice Zao avatar too.

 

Sounds fun/interesting, Xeveniah :icon_bigg Got any pics?

Thanks, Midwinder :icon_bigg
-ud

 

Indeed! the sign of true wisdom!! :lol:

 

I liked your blog post, Heres a quick fix. Liquid Nitrogen . I think it may have been Xenon.7 who told me that the fans are only on at 44%. Thats barely enough for cooling, but to keep it quiet.