Why do people hate on VGA so much?

Yes I did

 

Would've preferred that to yet another thread about the other VGA.

 

yes, but I thought: "it can't be, nobody hates vga that much" and "perhaps someone can't make a dreamcast vga box to work"
but it was about the grading thing
grading scam seems to be a better name lol

 

The only practical way to preserve ROM data is by dumping it, in my uninformed opinion.

 

Ok then.

 

I thought it was regarding that VGA as well. I know this community doesn't hate VGA, but who knows if there are others that do. As it seems like the OP's question was answered, maybe we should turn the discussion to that haha.

 

Actually since it was cut off at "Why do people hate VGA..." I thought it was about why people hate on Dreamcast VGA cables instead of the boxes.
I really have had no issues with my cable from eBay (probably from China).

 

I think the problem is that, in the video game world, even collectors don't understand the purpose of such services.

For a long time, people have wanted to grade collectible items. Remember we're talking about items that were made to be used, and subjected to general wear and tear. Things such as coins and stamps were probably first, as well as books, baseball cards and, of course, comics. There are recognized grades for each of these items that are very strict. Naturally, there are people who spend all day every day working with these products, know how to grade them and how to spot a fake. Consequently, items such as coins, comics and baseball cards are frequently sold with grades listed. Naturally, this grading service takes time and those people charge for it. As an example of strict grading, a Magic: The Gathering card removed from a booster pack and put in a protective sleeve may not necessarily be mint. If, for example, it wasn't printed with even borders, it would have points deducted.

In the Eighties, Numismatic Guaranty Corporation was formed to grade coins. They then went on to form a network of third parties who only grade items - they can't sell. This includes the Certified Guaranty Company (CGC), founded in 2000 to grade comic books (and other items). The Overstreet method of grading was already long in practice, but they took a panel of expert graders, had them grade items and learnt from the variations.

Of course, there was always a problem with grading items, particularly paper-based items. They're susceptible to the environment and handling. How do you ensure that a comic book is preserved in its graded condition after grading? Well, you can, of course, put it in an acid-free bag, use a backing board, protect it from light, keep it in a certain temperature and humidity range. However, there was another answer...

Around the same time as CGC was being founded (late Nineties), another body was formed - the Action Figure Authority. Likewise, they are a grading-only service - an AFA employee may not sell graded figures. They were less forthcoming about who they actually were - but I assume dealers and collectors who were experts in their field. Again, they strictly graded the figures - in fact, their grading system is quite highly rated, as there was a huge discrepancy in the previous method of grading carded figures. Their solution to the issue of items becoming damaged after grading was to seal them in tamperproof UV-resistant acrylic cases with special labels and holograms, leaving a slight opening for air circulation. Later on, they also offered Internet verification via a code of the grade. CGC did also seal their comics, but their packaging was designed to be opened if you wish - after all, you can't read a sealed comic book! However, this broke the seal and would require regrading (at further, but discounted, cost).

So, what are (or should be) the benefits of a grading and encapsulation service?

• A strict standard of grading is established by industry experts
• You items are graded to that standard by the experts
• No risk of over-grading - the experts may not sell items, so you know it's not been over-graded by an unscrupulous dealer
• Sealed in a protective enclosure to preserve item in graded condition & prevent tampering
• Online verification of grade
• Cuts down risk of counterfeit items (should really eliminate it altogether, but they've been known to get through)
• Enclosures make storage easy (e.g. compared to awkwardly-shaped carded action figures) whilst allowing display still
• The assurance of a confirmed high-grade item can increase the value
• Often a secure, secret grading facility so your item will be safe

Regardless of where you sit on the matter, high-grade comic book WILL sell at auction for more than a lower-grade example - especially if there are few known copies at such a high grade... EVEN a loose one! Consequently, one that has been graded highly and sealed in a container that can be opened is desirable.

How well does this all translate over to the video game market, though?

Well, it's an interesting question. Firstly, it should be noted that video games are very different from most collectibles. You can't play with trading cards (or couldn't until someone thought to make clear sleeves for the purpose - but it still risks damage), but putting them in a folder is usually sufficient. You can't take an action figure off its card, so you can't really do much other than look at it... and it's hard to prop it up on a thin card edge. Encapsulating it really makes sense - it preserves it and allows you to display it easily, plus nobody's likely to want to take it out. Comic books... well, you can read them, but risk getting them stained. Video games, though - by and large, you should be able to play them without damaging them or adversely affecting the value... other than continually opening cardboard boxes, of course.

There's no good grading system in place for video games. So.. is the VGA's grading system any good? Well, they're part of the Collectible Grading Authority, which started with the AFA... so you'd certainly hope so (in fact, their FAQ is obviously ripped from the AFA site, as they left the word figure in there)! You will be interested to know that they consider an autograph to be a flaw that will automatically restrict the grade to a maximum of 70 (although you can request it to be cased, not graded if you feel this would affect the value). In theory at least, it should be good grading... although we don't know the specifics of the grading, or who is grading it (former AFA graders or a team of video game experts).. although there's a basic summary here.

So... why do they get so much criticism?

There could be a lot of reasons for this. Perhaps people don't trust the graders. Perhaps they think the service is too expensive. I think many feel it is unnecessary - probably because, as I said, they feel games should be played (and it's perfectly reasonable to do so in many cases). Game collectors seem to be less concerned about condition than other collectors, which I think plays a big part.

People do seem to scoff at the value automatically being ridiculously more - and rightly so. However, there will be a market, especially for older games that came in cardboard or blister packaging, for high-grade items... it's already happening. If you haven't noticed, people DO pay ridiculous amounts for games that are still sealed, or are in great condition. You'll see some games selling for several times what they sold for 10 years ago. It happens. However, I don't think that the value should skyrocket just because of the container. Yes, a sealed old game is worth more because most were opened. A graded game is potentially worth more if it is high-grade. Normally, you'd swallow the cost of valuation / grading when selling - if you go to a jeweller and pay £20 to have a watch valued and it's worth £1,000 - happy days. You don't go and sell it for £1,020 though.

The other issue is that video games aren't the same as comic books and coins - they are electronic circuits in many cases - they contain chips, capacitors and batteries with finite lifespans. These parts need replacing to keep the games working and prevent possible damage. Discs may possibly degrade, too.

Is it worthwhile? Well, yes - but don't expect it to make the game much more valuable. It's worth it to be reassured that the item has been appraised by an expert as genuine and in a good condition. It's worth it to know that it's in a sturdy case and the box isn't going to get crushed when the seller inadequately packages it. The problem is that most video games don't have the sort of value that action figures and comic books can do, so it is an expensive service. If you want to VGA grade a whole collection, you're going to pay a fortune and it may not be worth it. It's more for the items that are rare, may well be forged and/or could get damaged in transit easily. However, you have to have the mentality of your video game collection being an investment that you put away and don't use, like a comic book or wine collection. If you want to play the games, obviously don't do it! It's more a future investment - when repros and bad grading becomes a major issue, people will indeed want VGA graded items.

 

<rant>
As I mentioned previously in the past, video game grading (VGA) is complete snake oil:

1. They are not experts. If they don't know or are unsure about some obscure item/game you send them, they will reject it. If you re-seal a product or provide them a product that looks legit, they will accept it. You can send them in a sealed Sapphire PC-Engine boot and they will very likely grade it.

2. They claim grading increases resale price. This is true, but only because you now need to cover the cost the VGA grading as well! Most VGA graded games are offered for sale at higher prices, but rarely do they sell. I've seen VGA graded games sell for CHEAPER than non-VGA graded games.

3. Your not really preserving anything. Getting your game locked in a tomb doesn't really do anything to preserve your game outside of very negligent handling. The case is not air tight and I doubt the shrink-wrap plastic would be of 'archive' quality anyway. Your better off putting it into a removable case yourself for protection.

4. The value of a game primarily has to do with the actual rarity and scarcity of the item. VGA grading an item doesn't instantly make something more valuable and rare. VGA grading a copy of SMB1 won't instantly make you rich. Just like comic books, value-added gimmicks don't make your comic any more valuable. Adding VGA grading won't do it ether.

5. Anyone who claims to have made money using VGA grading has only done so by selling out to other speculators. That is, selling to people who hope that a VGA graded game will appreciate in value more than a non-graded version. In addition, people who have VGA graded games are motivated and have a self-interest in promoting the fact that such items are worth more, simply because that is how they invested/gambled.

I could go on, but that will end my rant for today!

</rant>

 

Yup, same exact thought here. Really needed the laugh. Thanks.

 

That confirms it's probably those who are experts at grading action figures, but not experts in video games. A problem, for sure. You need to be able to recognize a reseal - easier on a Star Wars figure than a non-tagged shrink wrap.

No - you swallow the loss of the grading cost, I'm afraid. By grading an item, you're having its condition appraised and giving potential buyers a good idea of condition from afar. With comics and figures, that will make a big difference to the price. With video games... yes and no, but not so much... yet.

An airtight seal wouldn't be the best way to preserve an item. You are supposed to take comics out of their protective bags every few years to let them breathe. Shrink-wrap plastic is potentially an issue - but storing it in a "safe" material in good conditions will help.

How many times do I have to say this - rarity is about how many were made and how many show up on the market. Rarity DOES NOT equal value. An item's value is what someone is prepared to pay for it. Your analogy to comics is poor - comic value is HUGELY affected by condition.

You're quite right - VGA grading Mario won't, and SHOULDN'T, make you rich. As I said, it's pretty pointless to have common tat graded... just like a common Star Wars figure or a comic book published yesterday. The difference is that high-value comic books are usually 45-80 years old, action figures are usually 30-60 years old. High value video games are usually (but not exclusively) 20-30 years old. It's still a young market and kinda hard to see as an old, fragile item. Whilst boxes often got lost, comic books were usually dumped and action figures were supposed to be torn off the card, so they're rare items by design, really... that were relatively cheap. Video games were designed to last and bloody expensive. I'd like to say that means people took more care of them... but you know kids! lol

As I said, the "problem" is that gamers don't appreciate games in the way other collectors do. In the future, condition will matter more, and the high-grade items will be worth more. Currently, you could pay the same for a flawless game as one that has a few imperfections or indeed has had the disc resurfaced. A well-restored comic will still have greater value than it did before restoration... usually.

I'm not saying it's necessarily good or bad... but I don't think we're quite at the right time for grading and encapsulation with video games. It's jumping on the bandwagon after seeing prices go up, especially for sealed items. As you say, it would seem that they sadly don't have enough knowledge to understand some of the finer points.

Interestingly enough, they didn't accept action figure prototypes at first... but now they do.

 

VGA Grading sealed old electronics is a slow equivalent of seal-proofing an apple that's never been bitten into.

There are 2 outcomes:
1.) They are preservation experts, which would also make them con-artists for using shortsighted techniques that really do nothing outside of preserving the box and it's paper contents.
2.) They don't know what they are doing, they don't realize that their techniques do absolutely nothing to preserve the life of the hardware.

Air-tight UV protected sealing makes sense for preserving comics, but it wouldn't make sense for preserving a glass chandelier.

That being said, a SNES 2 that has been opened, inspected, re-capped, tested, re-sealed (film/plastic), and holds a long maintenance warranty is worth paying a premium for. Sure, a sealed console from the 80s has a solid chance of working right out of the box, but it's a risk... And it's the same risk whether it's a $250 sealed console or a $1500 soopur-seeld one.

 

retro put the same basic points far more elegantly than myself.
Money is changing hands for a service which is flawed as fake/repo items are being accepted and graded as authentic. In the case of the AFA i believe they won't grade that set of Star Wars figures but no refunds for the affected figures and i don't think the VGA are even aware about the known repos being submitted.

 

I know nothing about serious game collecting (I just buy games to play them), so this is just the opinion of one random gamer, but I've never understood why people would pay lots of money for an unopened game, or one that had been opened, but was graded by the VGA or anyone else. I mean, either the final buyer is going to open it anyway, which means (s)he could have bought an opened one for less money, or the buyer isn't going to open it and just keep it as a curio/investment. And in that case, the buyer can never be sure if the game works, or even if it's in there at all. The box might just contain something, such as a small bag of soil, etc) that weighs the same as the game cartridge/disc would, and the buyer won't know as he won't ever open it. Even if the original cartridge was in the box when the VGA graded it, the seller could then take it out, swap it for something worthless, then reseal the VGA's box, and sell it to the highest bidder.

And if you're paranoid, then you might suspect that the sealed game that you've just received back from the VGA might actually not be the ultra-rare, ultra valuable only-three-copies-exist game that you sent off to be graded, but that they might instead have swapped it for say a copy of E.T. or Superman 64, and kept the $80,000 game for themselves. If you don't open the box and check, then you'll never know...

Why do comics need oxygen? I would have thought the less oxygen (or any other gas) the better.

 

I used to collect games and consoles, and ones that were not open were a plus but I never thought they should be a higher price tag.
Now that I've stopped and selling most of my gaming stuff I have viewed this from another perspective. It really looked like a type of hoarding (yes a bad word) looking back at my photos. I just didn't see the reasoning to have all this stuff that's just sitting there...
So it's certainly something I won't ever get into again, collecting that is.

It's probably down to people who just want a complete 'untouched' set of something. Nothing more nothing less really.
Although, yes, some take it to the next level and use it as status or play it off like a status to be a leg up on another collector. Probably for internet points or something pointless.

 

http://www.nintendoplayer.com/feature/vga/

I came across this, it may help some prototype collector in the future.

 

That's incredibly interesting.