Why weren't there more 2d titles for the N64?

I was tired when I wrote that list.

MK:Trilogy I listed (I stated MK, I just did not remember what version). Sub-Zero Mythology does not really count since most of the BG was rendered in 3D space and not flat 2D planes (I should know from looking at it in wireframe for a while).

Also I don't really go into counting mini games or side stuff in games as a full blown 2D game which is what the author was asking about. :thumbsup:

The rest you are correct on and are probably missing a whole lot more but it's still sadly a minute fraction of the entire n64 library.

I know saturn is quad based. See my previous post (on = not, again it was late). If Tomb Raider was ment to be in quads well they sure did a hell of a job changing that in the ps1/pc version.

I'll let you figure out why I know that :thumbsup:

 

Well wikipedia seems to say that Tomb Raider's engine was limited because of its Saturn origins.

I wash my hands!

 

There's absolutely nothing "theroetical" about Saturn games like Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon Saga or the Shenmue prototype! If anything, that official performance figure of 500,000 flat-shaded polygons per second might have been a (very) conservative estimate on the part of a Sega that didn't yet realise how far development teams - many being its own - would go on to push the hardware in later years...

 

I don't mean to be rude, but how exactly do you know that's a "(very) conservative estimate"? Have you counted them?

For that matter, can anyone provide reliable estimates on peak real-world performance for any of the machines of that era? I'm sick of seeing the same numbers pushed around on Wikipedia and other places without any proper justification.

 

I have to say, I think this is complete conjecture. VF2 might have pushed 200k textured polygons (that's 3333 polys a frame @ 60fps), but it certainly doesn't look that high. It had to draw the floor in a mode 7 style 2D plane and there was no Shun's bridge. The 'high-res' mode makes it look better than it is IMO.

Panzer Dragoon Saga probably was getting close to the Saturn's limit and Shenmue was not even a proper game, just a load of cut scenes in real time 3D. Was it pushing 200,000 PPS or 6666 polys per frame @30fps? I seriously doubt it. There is a reason it was running ~25 frames per second. I reckon it must be close to that, but I doubt it was more.

I think people get confused then they look at a quad-based model because in the right circumstances with a talented artist they can look better than a triangle based model, certainly more destailed with good texturing. A quad sided polygon in a lot of cases can equal 2 tri-sided polygons if used carefully.

 

u need double the triangles to make a square surface than u need quads.

THUS a surface comprising of 10 triangle , shaping 5 boxes, would only need 5 quads. 10 polygones versus 5 polygones. simple math.

Secondly, no offence, but I would give more value to the estimations of someone who has worked on emulating the saturn for example than anyone else (like myself) who has merely played it.

 

I just tried Sega's own info on the Saturn for a correct number of polys but they don't even mention anything about it. They show colour and sprite info but no polygons
http://sega.jp/archive/segahard/ss/data.html Actually you guys may want to take a look at the Sega museum. Pretty good with complete game release lists for all of their consoles.

Yakumo

 

Yeah, I orginally meant 2d as in sprite based, not just 2d in terms of gameplay.

And thanks for all the responses.

 

Really makes you wonder if that buffer and microcode had been better just what would have been different. Do you think we would have seen ports of games like Metal Slug, King of Fighters, Garou, Marvel Vs Street Fighter, etc on the N64? I would imagine most would have been possible atleast if they used some compression which I'm sure they could have. It would have been very nice considering how the crappy Playstation 1MB VRAM doomed the great 2D games ported to home systems in a way. Sega Saturn had it's ace with the RAM cart that was sadly under utilized but atleast it was there.

It just amazes me how with the Saturn, N64, and PSX generation that some people... (Sony) thought they could get away with 1MB of video ram. Atleast Sega had a way of expanding RAM. Guess Sony was too retarded to think ahead.

 

all systems of that generation had their fair share of bottlenecks.
imho, the tmem and microcode issue on the n64 and the dual sh2 setup/3d features tacked on in the last minute of the saturn were much more of a limiting factor than the tiny psx ram in the end, at least when comparing the graphics of later games on each system.

although i dont have any experience with coding for anything newer than the snes, i assume that with clever programming, you can always compensate for small ram.
if the video hardware is lacking, on the other hand, youre basically stuck with what you have and apart from faking some things, theres no way to improve the output.
thats what i think, hope i'm not oversimplifying things.

 

well, N64 could handle 2d games quite well - check bangai-oh from treasure, game is entirely in 2d and works really well(altough many don't even know about it).
for those who wonder ~ N64 could push far less polygons than PSX and Saturn(Sat being second and naturely PSX being first).

 

I agree the problems for N64 and Saturn were more dibilitating than the lack of VRAM on the PSX. But honestly I'd rather have had the Saturn with the expanded RAM which offered great ports than the PSX which offered horrifying ports. It's pretty scarey to play games like Marvel Vs SF or Metal Slug X on the PSX. Honestly I can't think of much if anything on Playstation that the Saturn couldn't have done as well. But I can certainly think of plenty of games the PSX couldn't do.

It's always interesting to think what could have been possible on some of our old systems. The Saturn, the 32X, the N64, just a few of those I wonder what could have been if developers had put more effort and suppotr into them.