Ebay suspends account over VeRO takedown for an... empty box!

Discussion in 'Off Topic Discussion' started by ASSEMbler, Aug 2, 2010.

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  1. ASSEMbler

    ASSEMbler Administrator Staff Member

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    So it seems we have a new low to ebay.

    I was suspended for selling an empty box.

    An infringing box that I legally own and have
    an auction notice and receipt for.

    So here's the chat log from the VeRO claim rep on ebay.

    ------------------

    Initial Question/Comment: Listing Policy
    2:02:45 PM SystemSystem
    Thank you for contacting eBay Live Help!
    2:02:45 PM SystemSystem
    You are successfully connected to eBay Live help. Please hold for the next available Trust and Safety Expert.
    2:03:42 PM SystemSystem
    We appreciate your patience. You will be able to type in your questions as soon as you are connected with a Trust and Safety Expert. Please continue to hold for the next available representative.
    2:04:42 PM SystemSystem
    We apologize for the wait and thank you for you continued patience. Please continue to hold to keep your place in line. You should be connected to the next available agent shortly.
    2:05:42 PM SystemSystem
    We are sorry for the delayed connection. Your question is very important to us and one of our Trust and Safety Experts will be with you soon.
    2:06:27 PM SystemSystem
    Troy H. has joined this session!
    2:06:27 PM SystemSystem
    Connected with Troy H.
    2:06:41 PM AgentTroy H.
    Thank you for contacting eBay Trust and Safety Customer Support! My name is Troy, how can I help you today?
    2:06:43 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Greetings
    2:07:12 PM Customernihon_gamers
    I received a Vero suspension for an empty box. 405506292 I am sure it's an automated program doing it.
    2:07:33 PM Customernihon_gamers
    An empty box is just cardboard made from trees, so I fail to see how it violates Vero
    2:08:27 PM AgentTroy H.
    I am sorry to hear that your account has been suspended. I can assure you that this is not any automated program. I'll be happy to help you with that. May I have you verify your first name and user ID?
    2:08:42 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Kevin , nihon_gamers
    2:09:32 PM AgentTroy H.
    Thank you very much, Kevin. I am going to review your listings and account for the details. While I am reviewing your account, is there anything else that you would like me to address today?
    2:09:48 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Just the suspension, it's really random
    2:10:32 PM AgentTroy H.
    Ok. Please give me just a moment.
    2:12:43 PM AgentTroy H.
    What happened is the rights owner, Microsoft Corporation, served us with a legal notice informing us that the sale of this item is infringing on their intellectual property rights. We were legally obligated to remove the item from the site.
    2:13:02 PM AgentTroy H.
    I would suggest contacting the rights owner and asking them why they requested that your listing be removed.
    2:13:14 PM Customernihon_gamers
    And if they email me that it was a mistake, then what
    2:13:18 PM AgentTroy H.
    You can reach them at this email address: netsafe@microsoft.com
    2:13:29 PM Customernihon_gamers
    and do I have the ability to sue them for lost income
    2:13:33 PM AgentTroy H.
    If they find that the item was removed in error, they will be able to request that it be reinstated. Otherwise, they will be able to provide you with details as to why it is infringing on their rights.
    2:13:40 PM Customernihon_gamers
    I see
    2:13:54 PM Customernihon_gamers
    So this vero thing is by keywords?
    2:14:04 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Od do they have people on staff checking auctions
    2:14:12 PM Customernihon_gamers
    I want to avoid any further conflicts
    2:14:28 PM AgentTroy H.
    I am not a legal representative and cannot offer legal advice. You would need to obtain a lawyer to go against Microsofts actions.
    2:14:47 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Is there a list of vero items, so I know not to sell them?
    2:14:53 PM AgentTroy H.
    I am not sure how their system works regarding these reports.
    2:15:49 PM Customernihon_gamers
    So what happened to my 50 or so auctions if I am blocked
    2:16:03 PM AgentTroy H.
    No, there are not any VeRO items. The VeRO policy is where the sale of an item violates a rights owners copyrighted material or any license agreement.
    2:16:43 PM AgentTroy H.
    They have been removed and the fees have been credited back. We notified any bidders that the items are no longer available.
    2:16:55 PM Customernihon_gamers
    over an empty box, awesome
    2:17:13 PM AgentTroy H.
    Keep in mind what you have marketed the box as.
    2:17:21 PM Customernihon_gamers
    a box?
    2:17:51 PM Customernihon_gamers
    O.k. I will send them an email
    2:18:03 PM AgentTroy H.
    No, Xbox development debug kit DVT box. You have identified the box as being the property of Microsoft.
    2:18:09 PM Customernihon_gamers
    the box?
    2:18:37 PM AgentTroy H.
    Yes. These are questions that Microsoft will help you to resolve.
    2:18:43 PM Customernihon_gamers
    I see
    2:18:54 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Do they have a phone number?
    2:19:18 PM AgentTroy H.
    They have only provided us with their email address to contact them.
    2:19:54 PM Customernihon_gamers
    So there's no review of their takedown, just instantly done?
    2:20:18 PM Customernihon_gamers
    So an empty box, full of air is infringing and ebay instantly obeys?
    2:20:38 PM AgentTroy H.
    With the proper legal documentation, we are legally obligated. We cannot question their rights.
    2:21:17 PM Customernihon_gamers
    If I post legal injunction in my auction that they contact me before any vero claims, would they be obligated to do so?
    2:21:23 PM AgentTroy H.
    They are required to provide all the proper legal information to have the item removed.
    2:22:03 PM AgentTroy H.
    No. Because it is their copyrighted material. They have all rights to the items.
    2:22:21 PM Customernihon_gamers
    What if I have legal ownership?
    2:24:13 PM AgentTroy H.
    You can have ownership to an item that they allow to be sold. You cannot do certain things however because their is license agreement when you legally obtain such items, like a video game. Just as you cannot make a fake Louis Vuitton purse, just because you own the actual item.
    2:24:53 PM Customernihon_gamers
    So if I prove legal ownership to them, they will email to reinstate
    2:25:21 PM Customernihon_gamers
    I will contact them and see
    2:25:33 PM AgentTroy H.
    Not necessarily. You will want to contact them for the details.
    2:25:37 PM AgentTroy H.
    Excellent.
    2:25:38 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Thank you for your patience Troy H.
    2:25:50 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Can you email me any relevant info about the vero program
    2:25:50 PM AgentTroy H.
    You're very welcome. Good luck with your item.
    2:25:58 PM Customernihon_gamers
    for my legal evaluation
    2:26:48 PM AgentTroy H.
    You can review the information in our help pages, found here: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/questions/vero-ended-item.html
    2:27:52 PM Customernihon_gamers
    Thank you Troy H. for your records I will be publishing this on my log, thank you
    2:28:28 PM AgentTroy H.
    Please understand that I am not a legal representative and cannot offer any legal advice. You are welcome to contact our legal department for more information.
    2:28:33 PM AgentTroy H.
    Have a great day!

    ----------------------

    So my infringing box of air is now being appealed to microsoft!

    Fun times.
     
    ASSEMbler, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  2. subbie

    subbie Guardian of the Forum

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    So does it seem MS just has some search bot hitting up ebay for key things and instantly emailing ebay anything it finds?

    So odd they go after a freaking box.
     
    subbie, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  3. ASSEMbler

    ASSEMbler Administrator Staff Member

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    Exactly. I intend to make as much fun out of this as possible.

    I want to put XDK in random auctions, like XDK SOAP.
    Xtremely Dirty Knickers Soap!

    See what happens.
     
    ASSEMbler, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  4. subbie

    subbie Guardian of the Forum

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    =)
    Nice, give us the ebay link so we can bid on it.
     
    subbie, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  5. ASSEMbler

    ASSEMbler Administrator Staff Member

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    Here's the naughty box, which microsoft is asserting is
    infringing upon their rights.

    I had hoped to get all of $5 for it.

    In the end ebay pulled 75+ auctions over
    this box.
     

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    ASSEMbler, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  6. graciano1337

    graciano1337 Milk Bar

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    Wow...
     
    graciano1337, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  7. andoba

    andoba Site Supporter 2014

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    That's why you shouldn't auction dev stuff in eBay :(
     
    andoba, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  8. splith

    splith Resolute Member

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    I saw that box under the 'view all items from this seller' this morning, what the bloody hell? I once got banned for selling a login to runescape back when I was 12 or so, which from what I remember is perfectly legal to do, it clearly stated I had no rights and I got banned for 2 years!

    Ebay is just a POS at times.
     
    splith, Aug 2, 2010 Report
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  9. gelberhase

    gelberhase Gutsy Member

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    lol....ebay REALLY sucks....that´s the ultimate proof...
     
    gelberhase, Aug 3, 2010 Report
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  10. Cyantist

    Cyantist Site Supporter 2012,2013,2014,2015

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    Lol eBay just continues to get worse pulling things without checking.

    I was going to buy that box ages ago as well!
     
    Cyantist, Aug 3, 2010 Report
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  11. madhatter256

    madhatter256 Illustrious Member

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    Re list covering that 'debug' label, and word the description cryptically ;-).
     
    madhatter256, Aug 3, 2010 Report
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  12. johnace

    johnace Grumpy Old Man

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    List it using binery and link to a
    translater....let's see flea-bays program detect that....would possibly get u zero bids but atleast u wouldn't get banned.




    I know I'll get my coat.... Sorry :/
     
    johnace, Aug 3, 2010 Report
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  13. retro

    retro Resigned from mod duty 15 March 2018

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    WRONG!

    Being 12, you also needed parental consent if you had a paid account!

    You were also breaking eBay rules by having an account, as you have to be 18:

    http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/identity-underage-users.html

    Back to the matter of selling accounts, you'll find most online games won't let you sell your account.

    Kev, why didn't you just sell the box on the forum, if you only wanted $5?
     
    retro, Aug 3, 2010 Report
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  14. ASSEMbler

    ASSEMbler Administrator Staff Member

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    Stuff I have on the forum just doesn't get noticed for some reason.
     
    ASSEMbler, Aug 3, 2010 Report
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  15. Borman

    Borman Digital Games Curator

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    Sadly, a lot of us have moved on from the dev stuff lately, the excitement isn't there. In the past, I would have snapped up the box in no time, but now, its just not an option.
     
    Borman, Aug 5, 2010 Report
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  16. Trenton_net

    Trenton_net AKA SUPERCOM32

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    I like how it goes:

    Rep: "Keep in mind what you have marketed the box as.",
    Kevin: "a box?"

    It just highlights how difficult and ridiculous it must feel for the rep to have to defend eBay's position.
     
    Trenton_net, Aug 5, 2010 Report
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  17. ASSEMbler

    ASSEMbler Administrator Staff Member

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    Perhaps just you.
     
    ASSEMbler, Aug 5, 2010 Report
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  18. splith

    splith Resolute Member

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    We're going back years, the terms of use will have had many changes since then.
    Plus I was not breaking ebay's terms, it was jagex's, so they had a right to cancel the account.

    If you go into a car park that requires your numberplate for the ticket (a non-transferable ticket) and then sell it to someone at a cheap price, strangly enough the ticket wardons clamp the vehicle of the buyer and don't care less about the seller.

    And yes I was underage, I had a visa electron card and ebay accepted it even though it means I was quite clearly under 18 as over 18's can't get them! In fact, my ISP didn't check very well either, they did a credit check on me and asked me to sign the contract, which at the time of signing, I was under the age of legal binding contract signing so in theory my 24?-month contract isn't valid.
     
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  19. Cyantist

    Cyantist Site Supporter 2012,2013,2014,2015

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    If your still interested in selling that Ill probably buy it when i get off holiday
     
    Cyantist, Aug 5, 2010 Report
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  20. retro

    retro Resigned from mod duty 15 March 2018

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    That doesn't really matter, that's a standard clause. In this case, it works against you as the terms were even clearer back in 2001 when Runescape was introduced:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20011119051405/jagex.com/terms.html

    The terms were pretty much the same in 2004 when the rewrite of Runescape was released.

    Yes, that is against eBay's terms:

    http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/downloadable.html

    Jagex had the right to cancel the account and/or report the breach to eBay. eBay could easily have closed your account based on your age, too. Just because you managed to sign up for one doesn't mean you had the right to keep it. If you break their terms, be it selling accounts or being underage, they have the right to cancel your account.

    You were moaning that eBay stated you had no rights and that it was perfectly legal to sell your account. As you are aware, it is against the terms which you agreed to in order to play Runescape. It is also against eBay's policies (and has been for years), plus there's the fact you were too young to have an account (again you agreed to these terms to sign up), so I don't see how you can feel justified for criticizing eBay for their actions.

    Jagex is a great company, they're good people, so please don't criticize them for your wrongdoings. Don't forget, this site is primarily for game development talk - as such, you'll find people who work in the industry here. Don't be surprised to find that we'll stick up for colleagues and friends in the industry!
     
    retro, Aug 5, 2010 Report
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