Happy Independence Day - July 4th!

happy independence day!

 

GP, I understood it, but at the same time I didn´t see it as fun. But I also know, you showed the football hooligan picture as a counter answer to
Gleavepaul´s comment right here.

About the weed, well that is all up to the individual.

 

Protip: Don't reply in such a situation. You've become the resident unwarranted party pooper. Not a fun title to have.

 

Happy 4th of July everyone!

 

:rambo: Jeez, I start a thread saying 'Happy 4th July' and look at all the trouble I caused. Here we all are meant to be the 'Allies' as well lol, I'd hate to see the arguments springing up if some of our more vocal posters lived in the Middle East! :rambo:

Just so you can have a laugh, if you type 'American Hooligans' into Google images THIS is what you get http://robertleedy.com/2003/08/01/american-hooligans-invade-chateau-de-chenonceau/

Shit folks, run for the hills!

 

It would sure be nice if we weren't paying over the odds in taxes to pay for Scotland, that's for sure. They get way more than they pay in - something like 3billion GBP.

I'm all for the split myself. It would mess Scotland up though, in the end. Oil production in the North Sea is running down and half of it is owned by Norway anyway. The remainder is split between North and South. So that whole debate is less in favour of Scotland than the rebels would have you believe. Depending your income on a finite resource and whisky duty is not very advisable.

 

What was this from 'Scotland 101'? I think there is a shit load more to the Scottish economy than meets the eye. If you are suggesting that Scotland and the Scottish economy are incapable of supporting it's population and being a major contributing factor in the British / European & World economy, then perhaps you would care to check your facts. Given the size of Scotland and it's dwindling populace we've contributed a fair whack! That's not to say I am in favor of independence either, and not because I am stuck to the nipple of Queen Elizabeth, but because I personally believe that Britain is a Nation made up of very distinct countries & cultures with their own strengths. As a Union we are a great deal more influential on the World stage.

I don't understand the British division, I've never understood why for example we are stuck with 'The Lothian Question', which continues to piss the English voter off. It would annoy me greatly too!

Trust me, I doubt greatly if Scotland is as big a burden and drain on the UK's taxes & economy than is suggested otherwise we'd have been ditched a long time ago! It is a mutually benefitting situation.

You are also forgetting that Oil & Gas exploration in the North Sea is only part of the equation as there are significant reserves to the West of the Shetland Islands in waters which are harder to operate in. The North Sea might only be viable for another decade, but they've always stated there was a great deal more than met the eye.

There's been so much argument & counter argument in the last 30 or 40 years that frankly I feel the truth is masked. It depends on which side of the debate you are fixed upon.

For example: http://www.snp-bannockburn.org/scotlands-oil.html

I studied Modern Scottish history at University and my tutor was a very well known author & historian (I'll not give him any free adverts, if he wants a mention he can stand me a pint!) and he was convinced Scotland would be better off alone. I remain on the side of devolution.

As for my comment, like others here, I think people should perhaps sup some beer and chill!

 

Perhaps I was a bit rash - it's something that bothers me greatly actually. I take back my throw-away comment that I am all for it, I was angered by your comment Parris - even though I think it was mostly jestful. The British government could hardly throw out Scotland; a neighbouring country with many ties between peoples. Unrealistic and not in the sentiment that is the union. I am somewhat surprised you see Britain in that way, so cutthroat and mercenary. Only a vote by the Scots and the devolution that has already occured could support such a change. I don't believe parliment would ever dream of casting out any of the countries that make up the UK.

Tell me what industries Scotland supports locally. Where will its defense force come from? Conscription? Or will there be a token defense force that offers little in the way of actual defense? What will happen to employment? 22% of employment in Scotland currently comes from the Public Sector. Would those jobs remain if Scotland seperated? Doubtful.

The trouble with this whole 'put it to the vote' is that the majority of people don't have a clue what the implications are. In reality I support their right to choose. But I consider myself to be firstly British, not English, and I consider the relationship between the countries that make up Great Britain to be far more beneficial than the negative aspects of the union. I also feel sad that the historical unity we as a joined nation have fought and died for should not be so easily thrown away. We are like minded countries with mostly the same ideals and values. In a time when unity connects Europe we see separation. It's a sad turn of events.

Political parties, leaders and groups change over time, but the peoples of these countries largely remain the same. This whole trend will one day be looked upon as a loss in history, I am sure of it.

 

If it ain't Scottish it's crap!

 

:lol::lol::lol:

however, i think the correct pronunciation of "crap" is "crrrrraaaapp"!

 

Yes, happy "no one updates their websites or shows anything new on TV and everything closes earlier because it's a holiday" day...

 

You are not the only one, I think the slow devolvement of the United Kingdom is of great concern to a lot of people.

The British Government is currently partly the problem. At present a we are being badly governed. Far from Scotland having no influence in the decision, there is an increasing likelihood that we'll see greater SNP (Scottish National Party) support due in part to the perception (whether real or not) that the Labour party have lost their grass-root support in Scotland's socialist heartland. There is very little chance that the Conservative party will gain more than a token rise in support, whilst the Liberal Democrats are viewed as too fractured and incapable of delivering strong political backbone. Thus, by hook or by crook the main benefactors are the SNP.

Since the 1970's they have slowly gained, little by little in the ballot box primarily because whilst the labour party and others moved their political stance to the centre, they have remained firmly devoted to social-democracy. The bulk of Scotland's vote comes is socialist. Traditionally the farmers and landowners were Conservative, but since the farming community has dwindled you are left with an increasingly socialist society.

How socialist? Well, given that the only time Britain has had to deploy it's own troops on it's own soil was in Glasgow to disperse the communist movement, you could say - very! Since those days it has become more social democratic however!

The long and the short of it is that whereas the 3 main parties have lost standing, the SNP have gained. Their agenda is independence. Each voted counts in the favor of Scotland removing itself from the Union.

Wendy Alexander recently quit as the Scottish Labour party leader over issues relating to the funding of her election. However, 3 or 4 weeks prior to that she utterly infuriated the Labour Party, and PM Gordon Brown by attacking the SNP and demanding that they put their money where their mouth was and campaign for Independence! She said "Bring it on!", which played directly into the SNPs hands. She also claimed to have the backing of the Labour Party and PM Gordon Brown. Sadly, he didn't appear too convincing in his support!

The less Labour is socialist and viewed as ethical, the more likely it is that SNP will gain their Scottish voters.

A nation that was once an Empire and ruled the waves has a great deal of blood on it's hands. The Scottish are as complicit in this as the English, Irish & Welsh who benefitted and took part. I just have to look at the huge warehouses & the docks along the Clyde, the number of Bond Warehouses close to the city centre to see how my own home city benefitted from the plundering and trade that went on. Not all of it was illegal, and given the ethics & morality of the time perhaps we should appreciate that we have progressed sufficiently to understand our mistakes. I think we should acknowledge them & apologise. I was very impressed by the new Australian Prime Minister who on his first day in office apologised to the Aboriginal people.

As for recompensing the nations and people affected by this pillaging, plundering and nasty trade. No! I disagree. Frankly, I cannot understand why current populace should be expected to pay for the ignorance of their forefathers?

However, I do think we have a great deal to be ashamed of right now and in order to protect our geo-political & economic standing in the World, I often wonder what the British nation puts it's name, military might and money towards. We've been lied to and deceived a great many times and I dislike that a huge amount. Do I trust the current British Government? Frankly, not really! Am I ashamed of their actions in the middle east and abroad, absolutely and that is why I never voted for them last time around and won't so long as the current situation is allowed to continue.

I don't appreciate the regime being cut-throat or clandestine on my behalf. If my own Government appears prepared to lay aside it's ethics and morales in order to screw a middle eastern state up the butt for oil, why should I trust their opinion on home affairs?

If anyone thinks 'That is harsh and we did it to safeguard the people of the region from a brutal, undemocratic dictator', then I ask you why we've not moved in on Zimbabwe to defend it's people in the same fashion? Surely, it's not because it's not an oil rich nation?

The problem (as stated above) is compounded by the fact that a referendum on the issue has been left for so long that it feels like our opinion scares the UK Government. They should have demanded a referendum a long time ago and the situation would have evaporated.

A lot in that paragraph to cover, and I cannot pretend to have answers! This is primarily the crux of the debate. Above all else the economy, defense & job market is the main area of concern.

Leaving aside Scotland's industries for a second.

Could Scotland defend itself? There are 2 opposing thoughts on this. One is, simply having no real military presence in the United Kingdom. There are many other nations who have no Army, Navy or Airforce. Taking a quick straw poll of surrounding nations, who exactly is about to invade Scotland?

Norway? We'd probably welcome the Scandinavian input, after all they are the strongest economic nations in the Northern hemisphere. Ireland? We love the Irish and it wouldn't be the first time we'd have welcomed them ashore? Denmark?

If the Cold War were to reboot, I perhaps suspect that Russia would potentially be the only nation on the planet who posed any kind of threat. Imagine them gaining a foothold on Britain's soil. Hardly a reality!

On the other hand, some of the best known and most utilized UK troops were formally Scottish. That was until the British army did away with the likes of the Black Watch and the Queens Own Highlanders.

If Scotland needed defending, I don't think conscription would be necessary!

In regard to the economy & employment.

Not so long ago Glasgow was the second city of the British Empire. Ship building on the Clyde was the main industry locally. You had many heavy industries relating to metal works, manufacture and export. Scotland even had the World's worst car. The Hillman Imp! I must admit, we've never been very good at sexy, sleek car design!

During the late 70s, 80s and early 90s Scotland and certain parts of England died the death of a thousand cuts. The industries were so neatly tied together that once the Japanese outsmarted us in Ship Building, it was a matter of time before the whole stack of cards collapsed. When it did, it destroyed huge communities who simply had no other skills. The had lived and died along the rivers edge, breaking their backs to build the industries that carried the British Empire overseas and across land.

Where I live now was the former site of one of the largest train manufacturing yards in Britain. There's not a single trace of it now!

The coal industry was beaten to death, the Unions cut at the knees and unemployment rocketed. It was Britain's bust period. We had gone from an Empire to a pile of shit.

As a nation we are too fixated with what we once had, what we lost and don't appreciate what we have.

True, it's less sexy to discuss second to none service industries, top class banking & financial services, white or blue collar industries and the like. However, Scotland has them. Have a look on line at Scotland and you'll see that I don't think that we'll struggle too much.

Hey, we do a shit load of research and we brought you 'Dolly the Sheep' the World's first cloned animal, plus we've committed ourselves to sustainable power solutions. We brought you the silicon chip, tarmac, rubber tires, digital watches, TV, telephone's and the Worlds first home computer. We'll cope!

I've gone on far too long, I am going to be thrown off this site and have cabbages bumping of the back of my head.

This was a 4th July thing, so I think we should stop here, but I agree, however we have both had the wool pulled over our eyes for many decades by various Governments and agencies. I am not one for conspiracy theories, but this is more than that!

Let's stop now, before we go and piss everyone else off lol

 

Well, that just pisses me off to scroll through... I can't imagine if I actually read any of it, other than the last line at least... :icon_bigg

 

LOL :clap:

 

You forgot the mass produced Pong chip designed by two scottish engineers (The AY-3-8500) and Grand Theft Auto (one of the biggest Gaming franchises ever).

Got any sources for Scotlands claim to the Digital Watch?

 

I didn't know about the Pong chip, but I knew about GTA and decided most people here would have known about the relatively healthy gaming industry in Scotland, although for how much longer?

 

Yeah, and I can sum it up in one word: Whiskey.

 

Parris, you would get my support mate. But I would seriously doubt that the Danish government would support you. But I would support you in a fight if I had to. After all, Scots and Irish are my brothers too because of our Viking heritage, so mate you got my support too. And my thought patterns are speaking with a Scottish accent.

Cheers

 

I had to work but I afterwards i went to my Mom's house and ate a ton of crap. It worked out pretty well.