Is the women in games debate good or bad for women in games?

Let's bring this thread a little bit closer to videogames again.

"On Consuming Media Responsibly: Video Games, Horror Movies, and Anita Sarkeesian"

https://medium.com/play-time/dd2d4df6b94

 

I have to disagree with this to a certain degree. Sorry if this sounds sexist in itself, but there are lots of women who allow themselves to be objectified as long as it suits them in the long run. Pornography is a major example. If all (or even most) women were so against objectification, then there's be almost no pornography in the world (not counting gay porn of course). The solution is not to put more women in the industry. The people (mostly the men) have to quit making such fantasies virtually manifest. But like the saying goes "sex sells", and as long as this statement is true, nothing is going to change when there's a demand for it.

I'm not saying your reasoning isn't logical (it is, that's normally how I'd see it too), but that's just not how civil rights movements work (or have worked). Let's take the minority rights movement in the US as an example. Now, the minorities (black, mexican, native American, etc.) are indeed fighting to be on equal terms of the majority yes, but they are fighting for no one's rights but their own. Meaning it's beyond the scope of their cause. These days, a minority can use political correctness in a case against the majority, but the majority cannot, which is unequal. The minorities in a given movement may not approve of it, but it's not something that they are fighting actively against, or even fighting against in the slightest in 99% of cases.

My point is that as far as human rights go, the term "equal" or "equality" is highly volatile and not as solid as a mathematical equation or even common logic like it should be. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is. =[

EDIT: Garlo does have a point, this thread is going into a tangent. Maybe we should save these civil rights debates for another thread. I blame myself for the derailment. Sorry about that.

 

You're not a gamerboy, nor are you a gamergirl.
You are a gamer.

If one feels the need to establish they are a gamer girl, they are most likely attention seeking and scene queening.
It's the pictures of bitches chewing xbox controllers with their tits out, and youtube users like HaiLedaBear, girlgonegamer and raychul moore, that all contribute to slating reputation of the female gaming demographic. They are the reason women apparently need to be empowered in games.

 

with the porn example, more women in the industry, women creating content for other women and for men, and men creating content also for both is a good example of how the industry should be.

i believe it's being taken out of context, there has always been strong female videogame characters - Mrs Pac-Man, Samus, Chun-li, Lara Croft, Joanna Dark, Beyonetta, Resident Evil/bio hazards multiple female characters etc.

many on equal terms with their male hero/protagonist counterparts.

i'd love to see Miss Turok and Miss Nukem.
but you're right sex sells, no one not even the feminists want to play as a "bad" looking boring generic character.
the characters need to be characters they need to be created and developed and for that to happen there needs to be more female influence in the industry
but also everyone needs to remember videogames are not just a commercial industry, they are a combination of storytelling, writing, graphic art, etc. you can't tell an artist they need to change their creation because you dont like it or you dont agree with the way it portrays itself.

 

Exactly what I was thinking of today: there's this weird, unsettling way criticism and analysis of video games is shunned. I think much of it is because too many people today live in a bubble of shallow entertainment like video games and superhero movies, and don't want to think about how shallow and juvenile especially the world of video games really is + they aren't capable of analysis. Like I've said before, if a movie with as much militaristic nonsense as any recent Call of Duty game was released today, it'd be a laughingstock, but somehow CoD gets a pass since it's a video game series.

 

I don't think there's value in hand picking a set of games and claiming "X", attacking the whole medium of videogames. This isn't criticism of one game, it's an attack on a medium. I can make any hypothesis, and there are enough games out there that I can find enough to make a 30 minute video showing how these video games that I've handpicked support my hypothesis and make you think it's an epidemic across every video game ever. I can do this with books, comic books, movies, plays, restaurant menus, flyers stapled to the tree around the corner form my apartment, etc... I was mighty pissed there were no left-handed protagonists showcased Monday.

What Sarkeesian says is true; however, proving women have been treated poorly in some (even a lot of) videogames is just meaningless in the context of furthering women's lot in videogames & expressing how videogames can be used to make relationships between men and women (and thus society) healthier. Isn't that the goal here? Of the 2 videos so far, about an hour of footage, there's been about 3 minutes explaining what's right, how to fix the problem, an action I can take, a developer I can support. That's the big issue here.

There will always be a loud minority of people who are sick of hearing that "there's a problem". People take things way too seriously & anonymity also makes people brave. But, what we need are solutions. The time is ripe & some good games already exist (though you'd barely know about if you listen to Sarkeesian). It is easier than ever to make a game & get it distributed. The way to combat this is not by focusing on the problems of past, but on how to fix them in the future.

 

I think her videos focus only on specific games that share specific characteristics, not the entire medium. There's also a time limit to how long a video should be to make a point, so it makes sense to focus on the most popular or the most extreme cases.

Acknowledging that the problem exists is the first step, and starting a conversation about it is part of a process that could lead to change. I feel it's clear that it is necessary to point out that there is a problem and explain why, since a lot of people in the medium refuse to see it and therefore cannot fix it.

Another thing that should be clear is the mission statement, so we can set our expectations. According to her website, this is what the series of videos are about:

 

Honestly, I'm just getting tired of her always accusing my favorite hobby of having some sort of misogynistic agenda.

Females gamers have to deal with a lot of crap, yes. But like I mentioned before, everyone online has to deal with a lot of crap. If she really wants to be treated like an equal, then she has to deal with assholes just like everyone else online has to.

You're letting the modern 'feminist' movement cloud what the word truely stands for. Feminism in the US started during a time when women were not treated as equals. Men did the work while the women stayed home and cleaned, made dinner, and raised the kids. Some women were fine with that, others had their own ambitions but society wouldn't allow them to pursue it. They wanted to be treated like men, to be more than a mother and a housewife, to have a career, and to have the ability to pursue their dreams.

You're absolutely correct. She says stupid things because she knows it'll piss off a lot of people, then she filters through the comments to find the most sexist ones of the bunch (which are usually and blatantly jokes 90% of the time) and uses it to fuel her argument. It's so obvious.

So yes, shame on me.

But she doesn't. If her constant complaining about video games is any indication, she would never be happy until every game released stars a woman (bonus points if said woman's mission is to save a man). Then she'd complain that the women are being portrayed in a sexist manner, then developers would make each female have no personality or sense of individuality out of fear of being accused of misogyny.

Captive, wealthy, and active aren't the adjectives I'd use to describe her fanbase, but whatever works for you.

Exactly.

 

The thing about sexism is, yes, it's a two-way street - men have some disadvantages, and women have disadvantages too. But I think it's pretty clear, if you look at any sort of sociological data, that on the whole women are still largely at a disadvantage to men. It's true that most of the discriminatory laws and business practices of old are gone now, but that doesn't mean there's no discrimination. The really big disadvantage I see is that women don't have as much freedom to make life decisions as men do. Women are judged much more harshly than men. When a man does something, he's just a person doing something. But when a woman does something, she's a woman doing something. Everything women do is seen in the context of them being a woman. Consequently, women have to be much more self-conscious of everything they do, whereas men pretty much have free rein to do whatever the fuck they want. When a man does something that breaks from the mainstream, he's "individualist". When a woman does something similar, she gets all sorts of criticism.

Now, things are probably better now than they ever have been, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Women still have a lot to complain about. Men have a lot to complain about too, but less so than women. And no, I don't think there's anything wrong with complaining, if an injustice is occurring. If no one ever complained about anything, nothing would ever get fixed. Complaining doesn't mean you give up on your goals. You can do both.

So, to relate this back to games, people view male gamers as simply gamers, whereas women are viewed as female gamers. That's what's at issue here, I think. Women have to contend with all sorts of expectations that men don't have to deal with in gaming situations. Personally I think the argument about women being sexualized in videogames isn't really as big of an issue as people make it. For one thing, women are sexualized in all sorts of other media too. And so are men. Sex is something that appeals to almost everyone, so to say that it's debasing is kind of missing the point. There's nothing wrong about indulging natural sexual urges, and so there's nothing wrong with appealing to those urges. However, it isn't necessary to debase the person involved in the process. A person can be both sexy and cool in other ways. That's just the way I view it. And just to be clear, I also don't think there's anything wrong with sexualizing men in games or in any other media.

 

The article you originally linked to focused on criticism of horror films. The genre of a movie, that's a characteristic critics focus on. Critics aren't writing off the entire medium of film because horror movies as hyper violent gore-fests based on showing short clips from a bunch of horror movies... The posters here know better because we've played more than a handful of games, but what do you think someone without a gaming background is going to think after watching those videos? She doesn't qualify her selection of games. She represents all videogames by hand picking the specific scenes of specific games that already prove her point, and the point I was trying to make is that there are enough video games in existence that you can find scenes in some that will prove any point. It's a hasty generalization, and it's not criticism, it's propaganda.

You're right though, it is important to acknowledge there's a problem. I thought the problem has been established already... Any further discussion seems like navel gazing to me, and I don't think those specific videos do a good job of proving anything. Although I guess some of the comments here prove otherwise

She raised $160k to make youtube videos that tell people what they want to hear. What do you call that?

 

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGAvjwQPCHE
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_O1R7Zq9EI

Excellent video series. Thunderf00t has excellent logic.

This. If men and women are equals, then why do we need to differentiate each other based on gender? Even more so, the term empowerment (by it's primary definition: "The giving or delegation of power or authority") hardly speaks for equality's sake. United we stand, divided we fall. Textbook example.

 

try walking into womans toilets / changing room and saying that :encouragement:

there is a need to differentiate when tying to refer to an individual, out of a group "oh yeah im talking about that person over there..." *points at group of 20 people* its much easier to pick out obvious characteristics like, "the woman with the blonde hair" or "the tall guy with the ginger afro"

mass androgyny would be mind numbingly boring and pointless.

there's more and more games that let you "create" your own character eg saints row or various RPGs/MMOs

that is the way to go, but when you're dealing with a set storyline and characters from that story where you play the main protagonist eg, sam fisher in spliter cell. duke nukem in erm duke nukem, alan wake in alan wake. max payne in max payne.

lara croft, bayonetta etc.

people will always be singled out for their individual characteristics its part of how society works what we learn in school(not academically but socially).

until there is more female influence in the industry that will continue to be the case.

in human history females and males have had different roles it's only in recent times that has been changing, society as a whole is not as quick to adjust as individuals are.(for an example look at the generational differences between older folk and younger generations, acceptable / normal causal racism and sexism for older generation, younger generation finds it laughable and offensive)

 

What I find hilarious is that feminists ask for zelda to save link using the same methods, but going through history I couldnt find one case of one warrior-woman saving a man, focus on the "warrior" part, there are plenty of examples of women saving other women, men and children using tactics like hiding them like they did during the nazi occupation of europe, or that countess who used her diplomatic skills to save Freud, all tactics other than force and becoming heroes in the process. What these feminists are doing is ignoring this legacy in favor of something meaningless, a call of duty where ghost is a chick killing a bunch of russian rapists and saving her boyfriend.

Seriously, when you take all the BS out of it is just as ridiculous as that.

 

Exactly. They twist a lot of stories to suit the argument.

 

Oh, come on synrgy, you know what I was talking about, lol!

As for adding more women into the industry, that's not going to do much except create more power battles where it's inevitably enforced due to threats of being politically incorrect or being seen as sexist. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I work in the IT industry (gaming and non-gaming) and I've seen more than enough of my fair share as well as other people. Game devs do what they do because it works/sells, what they want personally in a game is a secondary objective. Example, I like games that use detailed normal mapping, EMBM and bump refraction for gfx, but most gamers would complain about that so I and no other game programmer in their right mind would try to sell a game with those gfx. What gamers (hard core gamers at least) prefer lots of DOT3 bumpmapping, lots of HDR and [ugly, low res] shadow mapping, so that's what they'd rather see implemented and that's what sells.

On a side note, my response to your post gives me a game idea (a gender neutral one, of course). I call it "The House of Glass", where you have to strategically tear down a house made of glass with basic hand tools without getting killed!

EDIT: Good example Shadowlayer!

So, what's next? Is the NAACP going to start complaining that there are not enough black people in video games? Or protest COD Black Ops 2 for starting off as a white man shooting black people in Africa? That would be ridiculous and laughable at best. Lol at 'murica's "first world problems"!

 

thats fine but make sure it's an android that just beeps in a neither masculine nor feminine way, and prehaps the use of power tools may appeal more to male gamers.



that was kind of my point, the developers put out what sells, what people want.

and if there's people wanting more female oriented content then there's an apparent gap in the market for female developers or male developers to come in and shovel out some content. wether people buy it or not is another matter.

little girls still play with prams and dolls and little boys play with action figures and toy guns, there is of course some crossover which is fine but for the most part that's how our brains work. there's alot at play including natural instinct.

if it's down to the ol fashioned equality in the workplace, if there is discrimination happening then that is of course wrong. but when it comes to gender specific content or gender neutral content then thats all subjective, if it's not there and you want it, start moving towards creating it. rather than attacking what is already there. what's already there is what is currently selling and working and there's nothing wrong with that. expecting people to change what they like or want to what you like and want is not reasonable, what people like to play, the same with movies and books, paintings etc.

 

I agree, and after doing some research I found out that, among other things, fairies, elves, Hyrule, Ganon and magic had no basis in history or reality either. Hopefully future installments in the Zelda series don't include these completely unrealistic elements.

How about criticizing it for being militaristic bullshit endorsed by a war criminal?

 

The video begins by missing the point entirely about Double Dragon Neon (the plot is that Marion is kidnapped, not that Marion punches the bad guy ONCE in the entire game, and only after Billy and Jimmy beat the crap out of him, after the entire credits end).

Yeah, Thunderf00t is right when he says that the damsel in distress is a very simple way, and easy way, to start a game plot (even Sarkeesian says this, and provides early examples of use in early media, such as silent films and animation), but as Tropes versus Women explain, it's also very lazy. Or as in the previous article I linked says ("On consuming media responsably")

In general, the video misses the point completely (intentionally?) about the criticism. Instead of facing on the cliche, it tries to make it seem as the healthiest, most deep and profound of plots. And bonus points for trying to explain to women how they should feel in the scenario when played on the real world! Hope they are paying attention to the video so they can feel as the guy tells them to feel.

"What defines a healthy relationship?" he asks as if that was related to the analysis of the game. The entire video seems to try to elecit an emotional response "What if your girl was kidnapped? Huh?! That would be bad, huh?"

As I said, it's just a video that tries to make it seem like the damsel in distress is not a cliche, tired, outdated plot. It tries to make it seem as profound, deeply emotional. And it also presents any criticism against it as an attack to the love between a man and a woman. And you don't want to be an emotionless monster that hates the love of a man who would do anything to protect his woman, right? Tellingly, there is no "What if your boyfriend was kidnapped" argument. In fact, he only mentions women as they relate to them having a relationship with a man. Otherwise, they don't exist for him.

Also, unlike Feminist Frequency, Thunderf00t does not quote any sources, no papers or anything that backs up the "research".

 

I totally agree.

While I do think the objectification of men and women can be an issue (sometimes), i still agree with you on everything else. It's just that it depends a lot of context and how it is used.

 

I get what you are saying. I think Sarkeesians' videos are directed at people familiar with the medium. Certainly the youtube "about" description of the video makes it clear that the trope is just one of the most widely used, but in the video is barely as clear as that, so it could be interpreted as "all games". Apparently the third video will show the games that make good use of the trope, so that could also help a bit.