PS SCPH-1001/2 audio output opinions please.

Since it's redbook CD-DA and not CD-ROM, there is no CD-ROM mode 1/2 style ECC and EDC involved, only the basic 8 bytes of parity. For CD-DA bit errors are generally accepted, and I believe they are so common that special utilities like EAC are needed to get good rips. I am no audiophile, but the "mech" seem to be pretty important from my understanding of CD-DA systems.

Right on. The original KSM-440AAM/ACM laser unit that is found in the SCPH-100x, SCPH-300x, the Yaroze and all Debugging Stations, should be replaced by a KSM-440BAM which is much better - at least for CD-ROM (since it lasts longer), for CD-DA I don't know.

You are probably right about the mech not being the best, compared to high-end stuff.

Sorry about that

 

Hey it's okay, I am just as guilty lol. We just can't help ourselves! ;-)

 

I'm not nearly an expert but I know that's not nearly correct. 1-bit DACs are NEW technology compared to parallel DACs, they have only been around since the 80s. A 1-bit DAC means the n-bit output is pulse width modulated and put through a low pass filter to average out the waveform. With PWM it's possible to output high resolution waveform with minimal components. The traditional way is to sum bits in parallel. While the traditional way is nice and simple, it's expensive to get precise and slow with >8bit samples. I don't get how this affects dithering at all which AFAIK is just a part of the production process. My understanding of dithering is noise added to counter audible quantization distortion.

I also have to chime in that I do not think of a PSX as a dream CD player. I think the lengths and money people go through for DIY audio is often laughable as are often their end products. If I had to design a system, I would be smart enough to not even play CDs in real time! The best way to playback CD audio is to rip them with EAC + Accuraterip to check integrity then do everything else in the digital domain but the output stage, maybe even use a Class D power amp. Then again, what do I know? I think using tubes in this day is stupid, that vinyl sounds worse than CDs, I would not think twice about choosing a switching power supply over linear, I wouldn't pay more than $5 for 10ft of wiring INCLUDING the connectors, I think that crappy discrete amps are better than hifi chipamps solely because they aren't proprietary and lastly I think using high end opamps is cheating.

 

I think you were sent to argue with wind, rain & trees! ;-)

I've been trying to find a CD DAC time line and can't. Certainly I conceed the point that 1-bit DAC appears to be newer technology, but it isn't better and technology has moved on from when the Playstation 1 was designed.

For instance, why is the PS2 considered to sound shit for CD playback if Sony got it allegedly so right with the PS1? This was meant to have been my original point, but I got bogged down and I conceed the point I am wrong that multi-bit DACs are newer. They have however been re-examined and are currently considered better, more robust & accurate, that point I won't conceed lol.

I just remembered I had a multi-bit DAC CD player WAY back! (16-Bit I think as I now remember the little dot logo). I also found mention of a paper suggesting 20-Bit DAC implimentation prior to the 1-bit DAC (fuck!). I am not trying to back peddle here, or back track. I'm big enough to point out when I make a mistake, however...

In my defense I am old enough to remember 1-bit error correction being written on the facade of CD players. This clearly had me confused.

This is beginning to remind me of days across the other side of a desk at my old job many moons ago when audio guys would stare me in the eyes and babble for many hours about the best set-up, the advantage of one over the other etc. Back then I would switch off after a while and think "....wonder what's for dinner?" But here I appear to have turned into one of them (POP!) "my god I am wearing slipper, sucking on a pipe and saying things like 'in my day'"

Here, a gift to you! These people are more respected than me, Niklas Ladberg of "ESP" and Ing Öhman of "Swedish Audio Technical Society". They are very good and can explain themselves very well: http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

My years of experience (if they count for anything) has taught me that not all technological leaps are actually advances. We've let a lot of people con us into believing that audio quality is important at the same time as reducing the quality subtly, by numbers. Simply placing an oscilloscope in the room and saying "see" doesn't work for me, I prefer the practice of the application.

If the white papers I pointed out from Wolfson in my previous reply didn't interest then here are two well informed opinions:

Wimms "diyAudio Forum" : "Benefits of 1-bit DAC are in theory that you need only 1 single reference voltage/current and you get away with all the parallel DAC linearity issues, simple output filters, etc. In practice, well, depends on practice.

Drawbacks are that when audio signal exceeds assumptions of natural roll-off, 1-bit DAC gets overloaded. Effect of this is short-term distortion and DC offset. DC offset is servoed out. Because overloads are very short, affecting only transients, they are not much worse than few samples clipping, even less - 1-bit DAC behaves like slew rate limiter, it enforces high frequency roll-off for strong HF signals, and passes weak HF signals. Sort of compression. This is where psychoacoustic cuts in.

So, for well-behaved audio source, 1-bit DAC can be very good an nice sounding solution. But loudness race and insane compression with very high-frequency heavy content can bring it down. And of course syntetic test signals.

Its not just simple hype that 1-bit DACs can be found in pretty highend devices. At some point they believed it will solve all precision issues. They still do. There are very few pure R2R ladder dac chips these days. Most use hybrid of R2R and delta-sigma. Its almost impossible to go beyond 15-18 or smth bits with R2R ladders.

In conclusion, your assertion that 1-bit 256FS dac is never better than 8-bit ladder DAC is misleading. Its the implementation details and intended usage that makes the difference.

Of course there is much hype around 1-bit dacs and truely cheap crp has flooded down the market, making it impossible to make any judgement about 1-bit dacs by specs. Two devices both with proudly advertized 1-bit DACs can be very different".

Kuei Yang Wang "diyAudio Forum" : "We can use agressive noiseshaping (and most 1-Bit systems do so VERY AGRESSIVELY, including SACD) to re-distribute the 8-Bit Noisefloor and then attempt to filter out the redistributed noise, leaving whatever our mathematical noiseshaping has left of the original signal. I for one find such an approach to run counter to any attempt to transmit a signal that has reliable semblence to what was fed into the transmission chain. A simple look at the output of an SACD Player using a wideband 'scope confirms my point visually."

and importantly "From where I stand the only advantage I note in 1-Bit technology is cost. Remove that and Multibit is a better choice by far".

That is an opinion expressed many times over, including in the "SATS" paper I linked to above.

Clearly I am not alone in my opinion. It is a question of looking more carefully at the technology itself as what is being written on the tin, in many instances is NOT what is in the can. Sony, for instance appears on the face of it to be attempting that old trick of "misconception ruling". Tell the customer it IS better and the customer believes it is.

It is subjective. What you like, you prefer! There is a dirth of evidence either way. If John Peel felt that vinyl was god, then that's good enough for me lol.

None of this is even remotely relevant and judging from your further comments you should go to an Audio website and repeat your preferences. I am sure you'll get a wonderful welcome as these guys would discuss Audio (like we would discuss Dev) until the cows came home. In fact I can guarantee it having sat across the desk for many years listening to them drone on and on.

You in your corner, me in mine and now I think that is the end of that one as frankly I think our opinions differ, which is perfectly fine by me (this is where my teenage daughter would say "because I know I am right" and run off). Being more mature I shall leave it to your imagination.

;-)

 

Can I drag this back to the PSx discussion rather than whether I know anything about audio technology lol ;-)