Saturn Shen-Mue & other unreleased Saturn talk

A reliable source close to the development team passed on to me very specific details about the two known complete revisions of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 and the Shenmue prototype, though now I can pretty much back up the claimed resolution and frame rate of the latter with physical evidence. Of course, I still only have this person's word on how the former would have looked, but considering their position and reputation I've absolutely no reason to doubt the information handed down. Sadly, I was sworn to secrecy on their identity long ago, and based on the fact he personally ordered any reference of Saturn VF3 to be removed from recent interviews it's clear Yu Suzuki would rather keep this one under wraps.

The bonus footage of Shenmue in its 32-bit form came as a total surprise to many as few knew of such a project existing until the official announcement, which most presumed was always intended for the Dreamcast since nothing on the contrary was ever stated. Either way, the fact remains that we only got that video because Suzuki realised this vision the way he intended - maybe even better, thanks to its new host platform's extra capabilities? Meanwhile, AM2 had to relinquish control of converting VF3 to the Dreamcast while they put the finishing touches on their own Saturn treatment, which management decided to shun (no pun intended) in favour of Genki's efforts.

To this day, it seems that Yu Suzuki in particular feels hurt by the whole business of this era, but at least he was able to complete Shenmue with full supervision over the end product. Unlike many of their western counterparts, the majority of key staff within Sega of Japan felt there was plenty of life left in the Saturn, but only if there was the promotion and support from America in particular. Bernie Stolar declared the Saturn's premature demise, while also kick-starting the internal struggle to create a suitable follow-up. Realising there was potential for yet another power struggle, the powers that be at SOJ were determined to come out on top for once. The fallout of 3DFX revealing its involvement in the next generation hardware design process became a perfect opportunity for the Japanese alternate to be chosen, and once again SOJ was back in charge. SOA managed to employ a more aggressive promotional campaign in the early days, but effectively overnight the balance of power shifted to a division where creativity took priority over money. We got some genuinely unique late additions to the Sega software catalogue from its Japanese departments on Dreamcast, while over in the US more people were bothered about the lack of EA's support... as if so-called hardcore gamers would have preferred the latest FIFA or Madden over the likes of Jet Set Radio and Shenmue, anyway!

Past experience proved that Sega's European side usually favoured with the Americans, but for the Dreamcast another shift took place, with MSR and Toy Commander being two of the more high profile results of this freedom. Yes, the Worldwide Soccer franchise was rebooted by a UK-based team, though all-in-all things changed for the better. However, there's absolutely no excuse for the cryptic adverts, lack of online gaming from day one and the millions blown sponsoring football teams that while definitely world-class, probably won't be everyone's proverbial cups of tea - some gamers don't give a rat's ass about soccer or whatever you call it! Anyway, I've ranted on for more than long enough and gone way off topic...

 

correction. The PlayStation brand has been adorning Football stadiums constantly since the PS1 days and it actually works.

 

YES HOW UNFORTUNATE.

That wasn't the problem though was it? The masses wanted EA games, which is why that was made into such a big deal. 'Hardcore' gamers don't buy enough games to keep a format alive.

 

I think it's more that there weren't enough "hardcore" gamers devoted to the Dreamcast to keep the format alive, irrespective of how many games they bought, but that's basically what you're saying anyway. If the Dreamcast had received support from EA's game division things would've been very different - if the graphical leap seen from games like Soul Edge to Soul Calibur was seen in EA's sports titles and released at or near launch, things could've been different. I still think the PS2 would've steamrollered the DC in the end, though. People tend to try and find reasons why the DC didn't do so well, but most of it boils down to Sony having the dominant position in the market and not dropping the ball.

 

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I'd rather not share information and then be unable to reveal exact sources due to existing non-disclosure agreements because it makes me look unreliable and possibly guilty of fabricating details, but the fact remains in the videogaming industry this happens a lot more than you think. While I'd love to continue passing on my acquired knowledge freely to all, doing so many ruin any chance of gaining further insights down the line as the trust with my contacts is destroyed. If you're still not convinced, try asking the guys at Kikizo to post their full and uncut interview with Yu Suzuki that was conducted when Shenmue III still seemed likely to go ahead - this is the only instance I know of when someone high ranking within AM2 spoke about Saturn Virtua Fighter 3, not including Hiroshi Kataoka's more recent suggestion that no such conversion ever happened (in spite of Suzuki holding a press conference to announce the beginning of its move from research into full development)! This was also the now infamous chat where Suzuki blew his fuse and launched into a scathing attack on Sega's post-Saturn/pre-Dreamcast management decisions, which ultimately resulted in the company's 32-bit hardware losing two potentially great titles from his own team, not to mention Sonic Adventure (even though this was not mentioned by name). Finally, he suggested that Sega should have instead invested more into next generation technology such as a proper Model 3 follow-up as opposed to designing two rival concepts for its Saturn successor and the doomed Eclipse project, which he never really the idea of anyway. Because his views didn't match those of Sega's new executives, many of Suzuki's best comments were forcibly removed from the published interview, and I seriously doubt we'll ever get to see the full version in public. Besides, many of you will already know just how much of a Suzuki-worshipper Adam Doree is, and who better than to get such juicy exclusives from the proverbial horses mouth as the lowdown on Saturn VF3 and the Shenmue prototype, not to mention hints relating to the plot of future installments in Ryo Hazuki's now-cancelled saga? Finally, for those still not convinced, how come other less professional journalists have been able to get similarly interesting details on such ill-fated games? I'm hoping to one day create something just as informative as Doree's old SegaWeb or the SegaBase pages, and on the subject of that site Sam Pettus also helped share many details relating to Saturn VF3 with the world - surely if he can do it then I can be just as reliable, too? If you don't want to believe me then that's absolutely fine (after all, it IS a free world - or at least it was the last time I checked!), but I'm not writing anything new that someone hasn't already with slightly different words. My intention has always been to just raise awareness of games that didn't see the light of day, though please don't see this as my comeback of sorts, because I'm quite happy to respond to any critics out there... and maybe one day the determination of myself and others will be rewarded in some way!

 

If I stop being a dick for a second, I'd like to say that your sources are probably ok, and I'd love to see the full interview you mention. What's the Eclipse project, by the way?

 

The determination of certain amateur journalists has proved crucial in helping advance the videogame industry, as without such pioneers we may never have ever discovered information regarding such cancelled titles as those mentioned earlier. With the official line being no such games exist, it's due to fringe researchers that so called professionals are having to revise past statements. I've already named just two of the key people involved specifically with revealing new details about Saturn Virtua Fighter 3, and by compiling their old articles it's become my intention to further investigate then possibly add further perspective. Maybe one day if Sega realises there is enough interest and demand we may even get to play such a holy grail for ourselves, and it should also be emphasised that people in this field of work often deservedly become "proper" writers over time.

To bring up Kikizo's co-founder again, Adam Doree turned SegaWeb into a better resource for Dreamcast news and reviews than Sega's own officially-sanctioned magazines. Now as the head of a corporately funded site, he's further gained the respect of his idols and continues to receive exclusives that may have once been impossible for someone in a similar position. Sam Pettus may have retired his virtual pseudonym as The Scribe, but years later SegaBase remains a fascinating source of reliable, trustworthy and well-written material that surpasses most the work of so-called professionals (especially those operating under the "New Journalism" umbrella term being thrown around so liberally as of late).

I must apologise for my annoying habit of ranting to a degree where I start engaging in severe cases of paragraph abuse, but at the same time I refuse to apologise for the conviction in writing about subjects that I feel deserve greater exposure. As I mentioned before, Yu Suzuki was made to retract several notable points from his now-infamous Kikizo interview, but that's not to say anything removed no longer exists in the public domain or that he never made such statements. I'd like to think I can gain the trust of people in higher places to find out the truth, just as others have done before me.

As with most financially-motivated operations, the gaming industry has rules, regulations and - most importantly - very strict, if not documented, codes of honour that must be followed. After all, how many people would be out of their jobs if we knew were every last leaked prototype or developer's quote came from? Since they were first invented, magazines and websites alike have thrived on having contact with insiders, some of whom may not always like it when details regarding work-in-progress or cancelled games are made available to readers. Anyway, that's more than enough for now about the complex relationship between journalists and those actually making the games we play... or sometimes don't get to!

Alchy, you asked for details of the Eclipse project so here to the best of my capacity is an answer of sorts. At some point in 1997, a small team within Sega of America started working on a 3D accelerator cartridge for the Saturn, known only as Eclipse. I've heard conflicting reports they were collaborating with 3DFX and Lockheed Martin, the latter presumably offering a variant of the same Real3D chipset it contributed to the Model 2 and 3 arcade boards. Either way, Core Design was known to be playing around with a working compatible development kit for its planned Saturn conversion of Tomb Raider II, while it was (incorrectly) rumoured that SCUD Race was also utilising this new technology. In reality, this was only ever a project limited to SOA, though I've also read before that AM2 received a final Eclipse cart for evaluation purposes. Of course, there was a shift in the balance of power at Sega back to Japanese control, and the whole concept of further Saturn upgrades was abandoned in favour of a new standalone console. With management upset at 3DFX publicising exact details of its plans to supply technology for Sega's next generation hardware, Dreamcast became the realised vision for the company's future with its NEC-powered alternative architecture. Well, hopefully this points you in the right direction as to what Eclipse could have been, though once more I'm heading into rant territory where I'd rather not...

 

The Scribe's stuff was roundly criticised here and elsewhere. I appreciate how dedicated you are to your gaming history, but it seems like you might need to take a wee pinch of salt along the way, or you might risk becoming a repository of rumours.

 

While I'm aware of criticism The Scribe's... er... scriptures (!!) have received in the past, I've never read anything specifically relating to his information regarding the games being discussed in this thread. Actually, he didn't mention anything about the prototype version of Shenmue as its existence was still highly secretive back then, but in terms of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 his coverage of this title was the first anyone had seen publically of exact cancellation dates and confirmation it was finished twice in different revisions. In fact, nobody had even brought up the idea of there being more than one "revision" before this, and in the years since SegaBase was published I've found out more to confirm this part of The Scribe's writings. Finally, as suggested before, I'm in the position where I built up trust with insiders who can provide greater details relating to this unreleased game and some others.

Now, with the results of my intensive research now forming a single resource that will be available soon enough, you'll be able to see there's no chance of me "becoming a repository of rumours," as you so eloquently put it! On the other hand, that's not to say I'll be able to name everyone that has provided me with this information - can I say non disclosure agreement? As I also said in my previous messages here, there are some people who could lose their jobs for being so honest with myself and other fellow investigators. While leaks of long-cancelled Saturn titles may not be high on Sega's priority, some of the employees prepared to disclose information are in respectable positions... and I doubt they got there by lying or being untrustworthy to those providing their salaries! So, it's only fair I keep my end of the bargain and protect select sources. Besides, if the likes of Kikizo can't publish uncut interviews with Sega employees then what makes you think I could get away with it, even if I haven't interrogated anyone as high-up as the Suzukis, Nakas or Mizuguchis (yet)?

One very quick point I would like to make on the subject of Saturn VF3 is that various UK-based journalists were entrusted with key information (and some even may have seen or played it!), but naturally they can only decline to comment for now. Also, I was once in regular contact with a someone from within Sega Europe who could name an executive known for showing off his finished copy of Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 Revision 2, which he even demonstrated behind closed doors at various trade shows back in the day. I really would love to say more, but I'm not in the mood for teasing so I'd rather focus more on what I can share with everyone - this should never be about boasting!

 

It doesn't do much without an XBAND and connection, sadly.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

OMG Alchy, it's taken me a few minutes to stop laughing! Nice graphic! ;-)

 

I apologise for my "repository of rumours" comment, but as far as the rest of the world is concerned, this represents exactly that. Multiple finished versions of VF3? Until I see some proof I'll remain a sceptic - as no doubt you would, were you in my position.

 

I vaguely remember a website where someone had a photo of a tv with a system that run virtua fighter 3. i think it was japanese and if i remember correctly i found out about it in the old assembler forums. (by the way, resurrect the old forums!!! too much good info in there!)

supposedly it was a saturn variant with some sort of upgraded graphics subsystem. I even think my attenstion was drawn to it by a comment assembler made. Anybody else from way back remember what i am talking about or am i delirious???

 

As I've said before, there is a long-term and very high ranking employee of Sega Europe (who has been identified to myself through a fellow colleague, though I don't want to risk disclosing either person's name here) known for previewing the finished second revision of Saturn VF3 to various insiders and journalists behind closed doors at trade events back when he was supposed to be promoting the upcoming Dreamcast. In spite of the high secrecy, verbal non-disclosure agreements and total restriction of any media being smuggled out, a few screenshots were believed to have leaked from a source at EMAP, the company responsible for covering the MegaDrive and Saturn period in magazine form - presumably these have long since been lost or deleted from public view at Sega's request.

Again, I can't really say any more, but it's been confirmed by none other than Yu Suzuki himself in the past that AM2 was not utilising the Eclipse upgrade cartridge or any other similar hardware accelerator, although his team did receive a working prototype for evaluation purposes (again, I'm repeating myself with this point). In fact, he revealed that the 32-bit prototype of what later became Shenmue had been running on a stock system, which has later been proved to be not entirely true because we've since discovered the footage included as a bonus with Shenmue II was sourced from a videotape, and therefore could very well have been altered somehow between its capture and release. Of course, the "upgraded graphics subsystem" could have been one way of describing SGL OS 3.02, which AM2 had been familiarising itself with around the time both Shenmue and Saturn VF3 were still active projects. Then again, according to the copy circulating online this upgrade of the Sega Graphics Library dates from two years previously, so who can you trust?

By the way, don't worry about having doubts when it comes to my information and sources - as you can probably tell, I'm still learning new things every day... and that's what makes my "job" so exciting!

 

What does it being on VHS have to do with this? Of course the video could've been altered, regardless of whether it was sourced from a VHS or not, that's just common sense. Also, you need to be a lot more careful with phrases like "proved to be not entirely true". Nothing is proven by that video either way.

 

Don't be trippin'. When i say that what i saw in the photo was a saturn variant with upgraded graphics, i mean real hardware. The thing was quite big as well and quite dark so you couldn't see clearly what it really was. If i remember right assembler was the one who hinted about it being upgraded saturn hardware. On the other hand, sgl 3.02 or whatever it was called was a programming library. Damn, if only i could find that webpage again.

 

Despite high security measures to prevent any kind of media leaking, there were two known breaches involving Saturn Virtua Fighter 3. The first involved someone revealing technical details of this game from a backstage playtest session at the 1998 ECTS, while the other revolved around screenshots supposedly shown at the same year's TGS event. I've not actually seen media from either source, though I have read an account of the game from a person linked to another who is believed to have seen it - and I have absolutely no reason to question the validity of these peoples' claims since they are industry insiders, so to speak. Anyway, this is the first I've heard of footage depicting a working Saturn upgrade or "variant" system. On the other hand, was this supposedly running VF3 or just a video demonstrating the actual hardware? As I said before, at least three prominent members of AM2 have confirmed that VF3 was not using any kind of accelerator, yet it's still a possibility they were investigating such technology and testing the idea with this game. After all, just because they didn't use an upgrade in the final development phase doesn't mean they didn't earlier on... and it's well reported that Yu Suzuki's team spent quite a while researching into whether or not the Saturn could reproduce VF3 to his satisfaction. Maybe the programmers at AM2 were toying with the idea at some point, as it's known they did receive a working Eclipse prototype? Then again, who's to say the prototype actually came in the form of a cartridge? Perhaps it was still a development kit of some kind, or possibly even an expanded kit yet to be reduced to its planned final size? I'm not familiar with the history of Sega's ill-fated 32X, but I'm sure it wasn't that small (or large, depending on your opinion) for the whole of its creation cycle! Anyway, that's enough crazy ranting and wild speculation for now...

 

i love this thread

 

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