Saturn Shen-Mue & other unreleased Saturn talk

Hands down the best reponse pic ever. Now lets make this thread last 20 PAGES!!!! j/k

 

My issue is that you come up with the same post endless times, namely that Virtua Fighter 3 was developed in two versions, one on vanilla hardware and one with some kind of add-on (which you claim rivalled Model 3 in terms of graphics) and attribute this knowledge to "contacts" you have/had in Sega Europe. You also mentioned Richard Leadbetter in the past, who indeed was an ardent and loyal supporter of Sega until the very bitter end and of course was Editor of Official Sega Magazine for a number of years.

No doubt there was a demo shown on vanilla saturn hardware, in fact this was reported back in the day in magazines in the UK, at least in Official Sega Saturn Magazine. But the add-on was only ever rumoured and has been denied various times in Interviews with Sega developers of various departments including AM2. So the only FACTS we are left with is that a vanilla saturn VF3 was in development to a point that it was shown behind closed doors and was then shelved. Anything else is pure speculation.

No doubt old mad man Yu Suzuki got pissed with the political mess that was Sega close to the end of their hardware life, especially during 32x/Saturn/Dreamcast period. He no doubt lost a lot of money and saw a number of his projects cancelled. He must be resentful. That kind of comment would be censored I am sure.

The problem with your passion for this subject is you end up elaborating and expanding what is known with what was rumoured and with what you want to believe was the case. In the end, it just makes you look like some hapless dreamer that is spinning a yarn to gain respect or credibility, lauding over everyone a secret knowledge and special connections. It looks fake. Unless you actually provide some proof, then you'd be better off quitting these posts.

This all happened a LONG time ago and they have no reason to keep their accounts of that time secret any longer. At least UK journalists.

 

I totally agree. I don't think Sega or anyone else cares what happened almost 10 years ago in regards to keeping it a secret. It doesn't really benefit anyone to carry these secrets to their grave.

By the way I pulled out Virtua Fighter 3tb and played it on my Dreamcast (now with my new VGA cable) and it still looks like total ass... :-(

 

If we are talkng about the time of Rich Leadbetter then the Sega Executive can only be Mark Maslowictz.

The picture of this cladestine showing he paints isnt really the case as Rich openly talked about playing the game on the EMAP GameOnline site.

Problem with Anthaemia is he does not have a complete detailed history, becuase there isnt one and he make far far too many leaps of logic, "Developer must have done this by accident" "They forgot about this left it in the game" and passes it off as truth without a disclaimer.

He was just in school at the time of VF3 development and did not even own a Saturn, the start of his investigations were all from reading back issues of Saturn magazine. That kind of investigation is good and checkable, the I've spoken to a sectret contact and I cant tell you what they said is just BS. dont bother posting that to make you look like more of an insider than you are.

The jelousy of Adam Dorree is just delicious. :lol: Also as yet he's never spoken to me about this topic.

 

Especially when you put Dead or Alive 2 on right next to it :lol: Yeah, DOA2 may not be the best 3D fighter out there but it sure as hell looks stunning even now!

Yakumo

 

I've played every version of dead or alive 2, and I still feel the Japanese dreamcast version is the best one. The playstation 2 version might have cinemas that run at 60fps, but the dreamcast one still controls and looks a hell of a lot better.

 

great, this thread seems to grow in the next days! hahaha i fucking love that!

 

I think that the best we could do is try to persuade Sega to show more footage of this game. (saturn shen-mue)

Why does that hurt them so bad? In the end, it's nothing that can go against SEGA interests in the videogame market at all, just the opposite.

The best we could do is to act together to try to get more footage.

 

I've been waiting to read exsegadev's views on this rapidly-expanding thread, and without quoting his entire post I'd like to make a few comments:

There's absolutely no denying the fact that I was still in school (but only just, mind!) when Saturn VF3 was being actively reported in magazines. However, this was around the time I recall many online reports and due to my anticipation for the game in question I made a conscious effort to compile every last worthwhile note for future reference.

Although I'd been toying with the idea of a Sega website around the time of the Dreamcast's launch, there were already too many more professional alternatives with direct access to so-called "insider" information, so why would anyone bother looking at the work of a self-confessed amateur? Fortunately, all that changed when I hooked up with a few similarly-minded Sega enthusiasts at college. At this point I put together an ambitious site with content built around the Saturn era, with my colleagues on the project choosing systems of expertise so every facet of Sega's history was covered, from the very beginning to cutting edge news.

This effort was originally meant for a multimedia assignment, but ultimately it grew to take up much of our spare time, and in the end I took over the whole thing... but let's not get too far ahead just yet! As a few penniless students with plenty of free sessions to our names, we desperately tried making contact with someone within Sega who could perhaps offer a few exclusives. Of course, we knew all too well about non-disclosure agreements and the fact Sega's Japanese AM departments rarely talked to even professional journalists, never mind actually discussing the likes of cancelled titles.

After a while, I was anonymously contacted by someone claiming to be an employee of Sega Europe. Naturally sceptical about this, I continued exchanges while subtly demanding exactly what many of you have been doing here - in other words, I wanted proof. By referencing my growing archive of official reports in our conversations, I was finally given what could only have been the views of someone "in" on such things as VF3 and other unreleased Saturn games that I'd been investigating.

In addition to my side of things, it was also my duty to see if I could get any details relating to other Sega consoles and their software, especially since it wouldn't have looked good if my section of the site was getting the most exclusives! Because so much had been lost over time, there really wasn't much this person could say about the pre-MegaDrive days, although I did manage to get a little perspective on the collapse of STI and the way Sega of Japan wrestled power back following the Saturn's demise, which my source blamed solely on Bernie Stolar.

By the time I was studying new media and graphic design at university, the site I'd now been working on for three years wasn't really up to scratch anymore. However, that's not to say I was going to abandon my hard work, so instead I drafted up plans for an idea that I'd first had right back in '99 but not had the facilities to realise back then. Also, it didn't help that now I was alone, the other guys moving on and leaving me with something I was quickly turning into a project centred around the Saturn period. Within a few months, I was proposing a quarterly fanzine created to the same graphical standards as Sega's own official Saturn magazine, using my background in English language to emulate its beloved literary style as well - remember, I always intended for the end product of my labours to be ambitious. I wouldn't describe myself as a genius in Photoshop, Quark or whatever, but I have enough sample and work-in-progress work already sitting around to sugest I'm up to such a job. Ironically, considering recent comments made against the length of my posts here you'd never tell I have a masters degree in English, but that's what genuine excitement in a subject does to all you've learned, I guess!

Looking back, it's been a while since I last talked to the Sega insider, though in that time I've since bored countless other users to death here and on other forums with my admittedly self-repeating comments. The simple fact is that I'd love to discuss more wide-ranging topics, but I only have a finite amount of hours each day to put in any decent level of research and development into my still-ongoing project, so it's not as if I can branch off into other areas of discussion all the time. Believe me, I'd rather not just continue ranting about the same old subjects all the time, though in reality I'm also making sure to save all my best material for the end product, whenever that's going to be finished.

With a huge collection I can source and the hope others will come forward to provide new insights, I've decided to carry on, not concerning myself with deadlines or minor critics. I'm actually very pleased that someone's prepared to shoot me back down to earth now and then, as I can always improve and with your help I'll be able to take on board such comments to produce better posts not only here, but the final results of my project will hopefully end up being better as well.

I'm all for the idea of pooling together and looking into the possibility of new Shenmue prototype footage, though naturally it's hard to believe we'd ever stand a chance of succeeding. Yu Suzuki has been understandably quiet on the subject, and when he does open up his comments are usually made in secrecy with the agreement nothing is published. While this is just fine if you happen to work in the gaming industry, for us mere mortals it's frustrating to lose one potential lead after another because of... well, if Yu Suzuki doesn't want to talk I'm not in a position to make him!

As for the names already mentioned, Adam Doree really was a rare exception in that he went from being webmaster at a fan site (though I must admit, it was a high quality effort!) and outside AM worshipper to someone who now possesses access to his idols as an insider with support from Sega and many other high profile companies I'd never be able to infiltrate in my current position. The reason he won't talk to you, exsegadev, about the subject of Saturn VF3 is simply because his views would ultimately contradict the "official" company line, as spoken by Hiroshi Kataoka, who seemingly believes no such game ever existed! As someone who's worked incredibly hard to earn his contacts' trust and with a journalist's reputation, Adam can't really say much about what Yu Suzuki may have said to him during the now infamous Kikizo interview. I'm devastated by this, but as a definite outsider what chance do I have of getting him to reveal anything?

While it's been my choice not to specifically disclose any names, I was first pointed in the direction of Mark Maslowicz by my original contact years ago. I've specifically named Rich Leadbetter in the past, but as the former editor of SSM it was a no-brainer that he'd know something, as it was his job to publish details of VF3 in its Saturn guise. From the announcement confirming that AM2 would be taking responsibility of the conversion to its first sighting as a near-complete build that was cancelled in favour of Genki's Dreamcast version, he provided an immense wealth of knowledge and I won't apologise for treating his magazine's word as gospel because it proved the only official source of information for a while.

Anyway, back to Mr. Maslowicz's involvement in the mysterious VF3 story. My increasingly reliable online confidant suggested that it was "Mark" who was known to have a finished copy of VF3 revision 2, which lead to discussion of there presumably being an earlier first build. This too had been completed, but this was rejected by management on the grounds it didn't show enough of a technical progression from Fighters Megamix.

Undeterred and probably aware that Genki had already been approached to handle a Dreamcast conversion, Yu Suzuki ordered his team to really push the Saturn harder than anyone had ever done before. Using every trick in the book (and even coming up with a few good ideas of their own, possibly carried over from the concurrent development of what later became Shenmue), a far superior copy was demonstrated to management before suffering the same fate as its predecessor. I'm not going to list the many specific details here again, but these figures have been quoted from at least two different and reliable people so I think it's safe to conclude there must be some degree of truth involved.

I can't really include a full disclaimer with every post I make here (as my rants are long enough for most of the time, and I'll agree with anyone on this point!), though I can assure you now and then of the fact I'm only going on what I've been told in the past - it's not really my intention to bore anyone with assumptions or speculation. Still, because there's not much in the public domain to back up what I write about it's going to be an obvious reflex to accuse me of making up certain things, especially when I don't provide evidence.

Well, I certainly don't want to be attacking anyone here - or anywhere else, for that matter - and it's definitely not my intention to write huge posts for the sake of it. When I look back there's certain things that do tend to get repeated, but can't you see it from the view of someone who really wants to find answers? Surely there are more people out there with my level of dedication, and now it's clear there are some insiders lurking around maybe we can make some progress? I don't expect to convince AM2 that the Shenmue prototype or Saturn VF3 revisions are worthy of a full release, but couldn't they just throw people such as myself a proverbial bone now and then?

Right, I'd best end this before it turns into a mini novel on the subjects you all know me to be obsessed with! However, just before I do go for now, I've been the proud owner of a Saturn since day one and never claimed to be an insider myself. So what if my parents bought that Saturn for me? We were all young once! I just so happened to have been coming of age around the time SSM and SegaWeb were reporting the on/off Saturn conversion of Virtua Fighter 3, and being a huge fan of the series I'd love to know exactly why this highly-anticipated game didn't happen... not to mention I'd kill to see just how hard AM2 was pushing my favourite console, especially after witnessing their incredible work on the Shenmue prototype. Come to think of it, wasn't this very thread supposed to have been about that non-release? I've not only made a few people laugh with my ignorance of the paragraphing system, but I'm single-handedly steering this whole discussion off-topic. Then again, I guess it's working on some level as you all seem to carry on responding...

 

can you tease your sources about the SS copy protection? many people have been trying to find a way around, (check on cdfreaks forums in the optical storage discussion) using many different methods conjectures and so on with no definitive results... even tought some "supposed" insiders stated that is indeed possible to boot a cdr on saturn buy buring it correctly, and that it has been already done.

also i'll always wonder why the didn't retain the same protection for the DC... after all you can consider SS's copy protection as the most successful ever...

 

Actually, I can quite believe that. You are nothing if not verbose.

Taking any magazine as gospel is a bad idea. The information may well be correct - but it's unwise to take it as pure truth. At the very least, if you're going to claim something (especially something that's contested or not widely agreed upon), make a point of showing a scan or whatever. I think people would have a lot fewer problems with what you claim if you backed it up every now and then; just adding "According to (magazine)..." as a prefix would make what you say a lot easier to swallow.

 

x

 

Thank you very much for that suggestion, though I don't really see many posts from others here where they directly quote from magazines or vintage articles. The fact is that most people these days reference other sites, and with the reported imminent demise of EGM it's clear magazines just can't compete with online journalism, even though I'm a huge fan of the "old school" method (which is probably why I'm going down that route with my own project... even if it means limiting my audience to a small minority).

Anyway, the Saturn's copy protection was discussed quite frequently with my source, but in conclusion nothing revelatory was ever disclosed. While this person was aware there is great demand - or at least there was back then - to crack the "ring of protection" on Saturn discs, nobody really knows if it's ever going to be possible to emulate this on a standard CDR with commercially available writing technology. I know from past experience that someone has indeed found a way of creating bootable discs, though interest has dropped to a point where few are now prepared to even try solving this long-standing mystery.

The insider once talked openly about how the more ambitious methods being attempted by some, including a proposal from a regular at SegaXtreme who thought it may be possible to burn small games onto 8cm discs that can then be attached somehow to an original Saturn disc, giving their copy the same security as an official title. Of course, this didn't work because the laser would have to read a further distance in order to reach the security ring, but you have to admit it was a good idea.

I'm not exactly sure about specific details relating to the bootable disc method as mentioned earlier, though I do know why Sega didn't use the same principles when developing the Dreamcast. To make things short, it was actually Yamaha that decided not to go with the same protection method, as there was a fuss being made about the new console's ability to handle the MIL-CD format and some kind of rival format that Microsoft had secretly pitched as an alternative to DVD.

Sega knew in advance of the Saturn's launch that its own system was underpowered in comparison with the upcoming PlayStation, but it didn't quite just bolt on a second processor as some have suggested. Learning from its mistakes, the decision was made not to do the same with the Dreamcast, even though Sega was aware of the PS2 having full DVD playback capabilities. At the time DVD was still a new concept with none of the popularity it would later achieve, so there wasn't really much pressure to adopt. Still, it was agreed that next generation software would require more disc space than before, explaining the GD's creation.

Sony has since repeated its success with the PS2 and gone with a relatively new format for the PS3, which has again proved a shrewd move as the rival HD-DVD was killed off. Then again, some commentators have suggested the rise of Blu-Ray would never have been if Sony had gone with HD-DVD instead, though I'm not so sure as UMD has gone the same way as MiniDisc and Betamax. Well, again I'm starting to head way off-topic and you've all read more than enough from me for now! Despite my best intentions and promises of the contrary, how about more of the same next time?

 

Your posts aren't normal forum posts, though - they're wordy, lengthy, and they're written in a tone that indicates authoritative statement, and I think it's this (eloquent though sometimes a little flowery) diction that some object to - notably, Druid II in the post above. Regardless, any time someone claims something that's disputed, it's only right to give evidence where possible.

Details!

UMD for movies died because it was a format with minimal appeal to the public. I can't fathom why Sony ever thought it would take off, especially for the ridiculous prices at which UMDs originally retailed.

 

I'm not sure of the reasons why Sony developed an all-new format for the PSP instead of just adopting DVD (or even MiniDisc), but now you can hook up your PSP for full-screen UMD viewing it's almost as if Sony's wanting to go directly against DVD - and we all know it's far too late for this to be a realistic option! As for details of the possible Saturn bootable copy method... maybe we should be asking karsten, since he first mentioned it?

I really should keep the lengthy posts for my project, and believe me there will be a lot more to it than just me ranting about non-games. In fact, I've already written plenty of extensive reviews and showcases that give a lot more background into certain titles than would ever have been possible with the limited information available back when SSM was still active. Also, I'm sorry if my messages come across as being "authoritative" and over-wordy, but I am an English student and that's something I've always been prone to!

Fortunately, for those prepared to wait around for the end results, I can assure you my project is being designed in such a way that it will be short and definitive from my point of view. Of course, that doesn't mean it will be a definitive source because no such thing ever exists - I'm open to new suggestions, constructive criticism and, most of all, I know that I'm not always going to be right...

 

DVD would be far too large for a handheld, mini-DVD would be too prone to piracy, and Minidisc would have capacity issues. It's understandable that they created a new disc-based medium for their handheld, but I think the push to put movies on it was daft - the capacity was considerably less than DVD, and the price was way too high. Doomed to failure from the start.

Contradiction in terms right there, and you know it. So long as your posts reflect that they're your point of view, though, you'll be fine. Any ideas when your "project" will be done, incidentally? And of what kind of scope is it?

 

Yeah, that probably wasn't the best choice of words (for once - usually I think of myself as being rather good in this respect)! What I meant to say is that I'll be writing to the best of my ability first time around, as the magazine format restricts me from going back and revisiting subjects unless there is enough material for a follow-up article. You don't have to worry about my crediting sources, since this has been a concern from the very beginning and I will be doing so where possible. As for a completion date, please bear in mind that I'm now working on this in my spare time and have been doing so over the last few years. I've given up planning a specific deadline, though I can assure you it will be out there one day... how about "when it's done" for an answer?

 

You massive liar. You didnt own a Saturn at the time and I don't know why your claiming to have now, maybe to give you some credibility
?

For the record dear Assembler forum members, I had this discussion with this poster way way back when he was Sega Santashiro. He would argue with people about the Saturn with people that owned one and have an air of authority that he still does. It transpired that all his knowledge came from reading SSM and that he was still in school and I'l paraphrase "doing reasearch on VF3 was a way to get in on the scene becuase I coundnt afford one"

I was going to mention this when I posted he was still in school at the time but it was not relevent but does back up my memory of that conversation about non Saturn ownership that he confirms he was in school at the time.

 

x

 

"It transpired that all his knowledge came from reading SSM and that he was still in school and I'l paraphrase "doing reasearch on VF3 was a way to get in on the scene becuase I coundnt afford one""

what scene???

i'm REALLY confused.