Super Mario Bros. 2 Prototype

You're playing thick and fast with "how it started out" by comparing Mario 128 tests (?) -> Pikmin vs Doki Doki Panic -> SMB2 USA. Crucially, DDP was actually released, so your comparison is void.

By most normal definitions of fictional canon, anything that is an crude adaptation from another source, however sanctioned for commercial/marketing purposes, is not canon. I don't consider Crystal to be canon for Starfox any more than I consider Brido's appearance in Mario Kart: Double Dash to be canon for the Mario games. I mean, they're there, but that doesn't stop them from being canonically inconsistent. Videogames are pretty hideous for consistency in general, especially narrative; try and explain the Zelda series if you will.

 

That a title has been released under two different names does not affect its official classification.

Just because my argument was quick, and lead easily to a conclusion doesn't make it wrong. Following logic models and analogy is one of the prime ways that the human mind works. Finding the best analogy is tricky but I did my best to keep it short and sweet. In the end, the value of who's argument holds more water will not be decided by neither you or myself, but by the people who read both posts

If nintendo, as the proprietor of the Mario trademark wishes to use something as part of the official Mario universe, then it is as official as it gets.

Personal preferences and past or future histories of the material used do not change the fact that like it or not, this is indeed Super Mario Bros 2 for the US audience, and to confirm that this game has been part of the official universe of Mario, nintendo has gone as far as to include characters such as Birdo and Shy-guys in more orthodox Mario games, such as Yoshi's Island/Story etc.

I must stress again, that me and you might not like the fact that Doki
Doki Panic got mariolized, but Official means official, and it IS authoritative when it comes to deciding what is canon. If the creator of some idea endorses or combines two different universes, who are we to judge if something is canon or not, based on our personal preference or grudge?


As regards narrations, the Lowest Common Denominator approach is the best to follow in trying to connect the dots.

But who cares anyway? It's not like any of this really happened in real life, that one must worry about the details of consistency. These are creative works that are not bound by precedence as such, because if they were following precedent, then their creativity would be very much limited to the ambit given by the previous games. Imagine what would happen if a game designer had not envisioned the future of a title, and some things would lead to dead-ends.

Interpreting narration losely is the best way in my view.

 

I'd go for chronological primacy, myself.

Refutation as follows. You're saying this:

has something to do with Star Wars (it's supposed to be an Ewok). I mean, shit, maybe some tremendous dork has actually demonstrated that it falls directly in line with the Return of the Jedi and Star Wars' canon as a whole, but to most people it's a bastardisation, it's not got anything to do with the real Star Wars at all. That was my point in starting all this; SMB 2 USA doesn't feel like a Mario game to most people. Certainly, the people I've explained the history of the game to have had an "ahh" moment, which I have to assume is them finding justification for their impression that the game isn't much of a Mario game at all.

I'm tiring of this, and it's not because your points aren't valid, but I guess I need to clarify again: it isn't SMB2 USA's lack of content precedent in SMB that is at issue, it's that SMB2 USA was not designed as a Mario game in the first instance, does not share game mechanics with any prior or following Mario game, and was retro-fitted to the series by commercial necessity.

Yeah, agreed, and again Zelda's a good example of inconsistency playing a positive role in the series' creative flexibility. I think in my first post I mentioned that I was coming across as a big pedant, I'm really not that bothered by it, but I don't consider these games -SMB2USA, Starfox Adventures, Mean Bean Machine, Sonic Spinball, etc- a true part of their respective series. I also genuinely dislike Birdo, which probably introduces an element of bias.

 

Well, as many people know, DDP was created by Shigeru Miyamoto, and the music for it was composed by Koji Kondo. Take a look at the DDP title screen for instance: ©1987 Nintendo/Fuji TV. Papa, Mama, Lina and Imajin were characters of a Fuji TV show.

The Starman and POW blocks were already in DDP, probably because it was meant to be converted into a Mario game from the beginning. Miyamoto actually had a larger involvement in DDP than in SMB2: Lost Levels. The latter was directed by Takashi Tezuka.

I would call it canon.

 

DDP has, as duri mentions, the Starman and POW blocks, both of which are "Mario" items. (SMB and Mario Bros)

DDP also has different play style for the characters, something Lost Levels (NES/SNES), Mario Kart (Multi), Super Mario 64x4 (DS) and several other titles have had for the different characters.

DDP also allows you to pick up objects and throw them, something Mario titles have had later.

One could also say that the Magic Carpet from DDP is what ended up as the lakitu clouds in SMB3/SMW.

The gameplay element of fetching a "key" to bring it to a keyhole was done in Super Mario World and Yoshi's Island.

DDP also allowed for some backtracking, it featured warpzones, small/big main char, it had alternate routes/shortcuts, but oll of this is just fishing around.


Besides, except from SMB1 and Lost Levels sharing visuals, and Mario 64 and Sunshine being in 3D, pretty much every Mario game plays in a different way somehow or atleast has enough differences to make it a full new experience, while the changes between SMB1 -> Lost Levels is barely a tiny add-on on something pre-made.

 

This SMB 2 USA beta has been released and can be found on Sonic-Cult:
http://www.sonic-cult.org/newsx/fullnews.php?id=140

Thanks to them, and enjoy!

 

But I don't get it? They said a "Sonic CulT exclusive release" but that doesn't sound right if the did not have any involvement in it, it was just passed onto them and he released it because he is totally against hoarding?

The Sonic CulT exclusive release bit makes it sound like they brought it and released the ROM themselves.

 

It gets even better:

"Also check out the article on this proto, stolen from The Mushroom Kingdom until I can be bothered to rewrite it myself."

Real nice. So glad to see such great effort goes into "their" releases.

 

Super Mario Bros. 2 Beta Rom up for download.

It looks legit and it works on Nestopia.


its up on Sonic Cult

Whats anyones thoughts (on the game)...

Edit: yeek Oh well... haven't check this topic for awhile

 

We have a topic open for this already, merged.

 

This is about the shittiest way you could go about releasing something. I mean, as much info and screenshots as the owner provided, it almost made it pointless to release the rom... all soniccult did was devalue someone's proto for what... internet cred?

 

What I like most are the music changes! :020:

From TMK:

One of the neatest changes involves the music. The percussion track of the Starman music is close to the "scratchy" original SMB rendition rather than the "wood block" SMB2 rendition.

SMB Starman
Prototype SMB2 Starman
Final SMB2 Starman

The underground music has been completely changed. In the prototype, the music is similar to the SMB3 remix of the SMB underground music. However, the music then speeds up and more percussion is added. There wouldn't be a remix like this again until Super Mario RPG. The final version was a modified version of the original Doki Doki Panic underground music.

Doki Doki Panic Underground
Final SMB2 Underground
Prototype SMB2 Underground
SMB3 Underground
Prototype SMB2 Underground (pause screen)

 

DDP underground can be heard in Warioland:Super Mario Land 3 I think

 

The Proto Underground theme reminds me of the busted right speaker on my car. Either that, or I set the bass on my Sound Blaster Audigy 2 card too high. Still neat stuff though..

I know in this proto, the "B" button for running faster doesn't even work! Seriously, I can't even jump to the other side here! :crying:

 

You could with Peach.

 

Um, I've not much interest in playing the ROM, but I can appreciate that having screenshots is massively different from havintg a ROM to play on yourself. Sonic Cult may be whores for "internet cred", but they released the ROM because lots of people want to play it.

 

What I meant was that the owner was nice enough to 1) back it up, and 2) provide us with a very detailed exploration of differences, so that he could retain his investment while still sharing it with those who care. Don't get me wrong, I wanted this to be released very much, but this is the wrong way to go about it.
If anything this sort of stunt will serve as a reason for some collectors to not do what the owner of this one did. I think everyone can agree that these things should be backed up. And for those who weren't lucky enough to get it themselves, a lot would like to see the sort of detailed look inside that we were given. The owner didn't have to do that. He doesn't owe us anything.

Yes, I get that providing screens and mp3s is not the same as providing a ROM. But that should always be up to the owner. And I'll take screens and mp3s over nothing anyday.

 

Ok, I guess I'm missing some part of the story. If the owner didn't want it released, he really shouldn't have given it to anyone, especially anyone associated with Sonic Cult. They have a history of doing this sort of thing.

 

From what I have read and can understand, the owner only sent a copy of the ROM to someone at Lost Levels, and it leaked from there.

 

Nintendo needs to remake Mario 2 like new super mario bros for DS