The most absurd PayPal situation ever...

Well, just when I thought PayPal couldn't top themselves...

A guy in Spain bought some Neo Geo items from me. He chose SEA shipping. He paid on November 2 and I shipped it on November 4. As per the auction, SEA shipping is 60-90 days.

Today I open my email and see a claim against me. The name of the buyer is Spanish, so I immediately assume it's a non-receipt claim since Spanish buyers often choose SEA shipping then file a claim after a couple of weeks. It's like a hobby for them. Sure enough, I'm correct.

He tells me he paid on November 2 and he hasn't received the item yet. He's actually pretty friendly about the whole thing, doesn't seem angry at all. I write him a polite email saying that he chose SEA shipping which takes 2-3 months and that the item is currently in transit and he should expect to receive it in 2-6 weeks. I give him the tracking number.

Here's what he writes back to me:

"PERFECT!!!! I will await....but i done this because the paypal insurance (only with 45 days before the payment)....I´m still awaiting for the stuff...MANY THANKS!!!"

So what's he doing? He's filing a non-receipt claim against me after 45 days even tho he understands he chose a 60-90 day shipping option. He just wants to feel safe so he's making a bogus claim so he can be protected. And he's telling me this specifically in a message attached to the claim.

I call PayPal. What are they going to do? Nothing. They tell me that technically the claim is valid since he hasn't received the item. In other words they're telling me that even tho the Buyer has put in writing that he knows his claim is not valid, in the eyes of PayPal it is valid. PayPal is actually supporting him. They're saying that Buyers only have a 45-day window to make a claim, so the Buyer just wants to get extended coverage and that's what he's doing. In their eyes this is NOT an abuse of their claims system. It actually makes sense from the standpoint of the Buyer.

My options? Wait 3 weeks for the claim to expire. Or escalate it to a full claim at which point they'll check the tracking number, wait, and possibly give him his money back if they wait "long enough" and the package hasn't arrived. The other option is his, which is to wait 3 weeks then escalate it to a claim and get another few weeks added on to holding up my money.

What the Buyer is doing is essentially making this a COD transaction by filing a knowingly false claim against me and getting the support of PayPal. Technically any one of us can do this on any transaction. You could file a non-receipt claim the day after you pay and the Seller ships. You wait for the item to arrive then decide if you'll release payment or not. The only thing PayPal will do is ban you if you make too many claims, but they won't ban you for admitting to making a false claim. So, just pick and choose when you want to do this and let PayPal do the work for you.

I'm so fucking livid I can't even see straight.

 

Well, I guess you'll just have to no longer allow that shipping option and put that buyer on a no-no list. And you might want to share their names for our other members incase they should ever be selling something and come across this guy bidding on their stuff for sale.

 

Wow thats fucked up, i love how paypal is just a law onto themselves. Luckily in the uk we have extra laws that they have to adhere to if they want to trade as a company over here which gives us slightly more protection but it's amazing that they seem to go out of their way to support the dodgy people.

In future i'd change your auctions to either only email or EMS i wouldnt even offer sea shipping if thats what they do.

 

omg... what freaking tards...
Hope everything ends well.

You're an exellent seller =D
Altough I would suggest someone here who knows spanish to talk with that guy. Maybe he doesn't understand english that well..

 

It's not too late to submit a class-action lawsuit claim against Paypal. If you got ripped off any time after February 1, 2004, you might be entitled to your money back from a $3.5 million settlement fund they were forced to cough up. Today's the last day to get it in the mail:

http://www.steelesettlement.com/

For the record, I don't use eBay or PayPal any more, and I strongly recommend that people use alternative services in their place.

 

I don't really have those options. I sell on eBay so eBay forces me to use PayPal. And since eBay requires one shipping option that's $15 or less, even if I'm shipping a TV from Japan to the US, I can't just eliminate SEA shipping. That means I'd have to offer Airmail (SAL) or EMS for $15 for everyone which would result in a greater loss.

In the end I think I'll probably just ban Buyers from Spain. Of the last 10 claims I've had on PayPal, I'd say that 9 of them have been from Spanish Buyers choosing SEA and the filing an early claim. I can't say I've ever had someone write a note in the actual claim saying they know they shouldn't have received it yet, but since admitting to filing a false claim bears no consequence there's not much I can do about it anyway.

The really shitty part is that I was cool to this guy. He waited a month to pay and I let him do it because I didn't want to relist the same item and he was in contact with me quite often. So he actually purchased the item on October 6 and didn't pay until November 2. Now he's help up the payment and will continue to do so until he receives the item which might take another 6 weeks, and probably will since it's the holiday season. That means from purchase to payment the total time could be as long as 4 months.

 

good lord that is ridiculous. hopefully you get all worked out.

 

Thanks for the settlement link, but I have a Japanese PayPal account, not a US account, which is a requirement. It also looks like the claim is being made on behalf of Buyers not receiving refunds, not Sellers.

The part about paying with a credit card did remind me of part of my conversation with the PayPal rep. She said that even if I escalated it to a full claim the Buyer will always have the right to simply deny the charge on their credit card at which point I lose. Odd...PayPal says that they "vigorously" fight credit card fraud, yet here's a guy who, if he did a charge back on his credit card tomorrow, would be committing fraud and even admitting to it since he knows he himself chose a 60-90 day shipping option. It seemed odd that the PayPal rep would phrase it like that, basically saying I'm better off waiting it out and hoping to get my money back as opposed to going toe to toe with the Buyer at which point he can change back. PayPal is saying that that would be a guaranteed loss for me, which is PayPal admitting they do nothing about charge backs.

I had a problem with a charge back a few years ago and that's when they told me they "vigorously" fight charge backs. I asked the rep for some examples of how they fight it and he wasn't able to give me any information at all. I guess I'm just supposed to take them at their word which I can see now is pretty much useless.

There were a lot of "odd" moments in the conversation, like when the PayPal rep said that if they see a Buyer abusing the claims process they'll ban him, so if this guy continues to do this he'll be banned. I brought up the fact that PayPal's position is that the guy technically hasn't done anything wrong....so she's saying they'll ban him if he continues to technically do nothing wrong. She switched her position to say that he'll get banned just for the number of claims, not the merit of the claims. I asked her what the number is and she said that she has no idea at which point he'd be banned.

Apparently they haven't really worked out good answers to follow up questions yet.

Part of me wants to call them back with a list of questions and record the conversation. I want to ask things like, "If I choose a shipping option that takes 60 days, is it OK if I file a non-receipt claim after 5 days when I know I shouldn't have received the package yet? Does PayPal consider this to be an abuse of the system? I know PayPal only protects me for 45 days so is it OK if I make a claim I know is bogus just to extend the time frame and get extra protection?"

 

So you have to offer a less than 15$ shipping option? Could the shipping option be "local pickup"? Just charge 15$ for them to pick it up from you in Japan. Leave it on them to hop on a plane and fly there. But somehow I doubt they'll accept local pickup as a less than 15$ "shipping option". But then again you have that for arcade machines so maybe you could do that. Essentially forcing them to pay for EMS but within the fucked up rules.

 

Sorry to hear that. eBay and PayPal are a law unto themselves, and they are becoming ridiculous. They've got too big for their own boots, and sooner or later it will blow up in their faces.

I hope you get it sorted amicably. To be honest, I don't blame him for wanting to get the claim in while he can just in case. However, he shouldn't have delayed payment and if he wanted to be sure it would arrive, he shouldn't have been such a tightarse and should have paid for a shipping method that is quicker and provides tracking! Talking of which, how the hell can PayPal check the tracking number? Surely the sea option has none?

Does eBay state WHERE this $15 shipping has to be TO? Surely it is fine to say within your own country, i.e. Japan. Do you have to bother putting the overseas shipping charges? Most sellers don't, and you have to ask. I'd clearly state that you'll only ship overseas by a tracked method (is SAL tracked? State SAL or EMS, at least).

The alternative could be to only put cheaper items (or fewer items) on eBay, but put "see my website for more items" ;-) heh.

 

That sound pretty crooked to me, sorry to hear that. I would seriously bann'm.

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!




Hey kendrick,


what other choices are there instead of paypal?

 

at least here in down under evilbay can't force Paypal as the only option. They tried but...

just wondering why many of European buyers acting this way...
sure heard of other countried but select few European countries always stand out it seems...

 

If you're using eBay, none! You HAVE to accept PayPal, at least you do in the UK.

There were other payment systems around before, which are still going I don't know. I think WorldPay, Moneybookers and Wirecard are.

Oh, incidentally, according to Wikipedia....

So perhaps you COULD claim under that suit, JG.

 

I think you need to start using Fed EX

 

Guess who hasn't bought from Japan before! Yup, GoH!

Have you any idea how much EMS costs from Japan, GoH? Let alone FedEx!

 

You made me Lol...Hard.

 

Yeah, FedEx, DHL, and UPS aren't options in Japan. I remember getting a quote to send 3 Dreamcasts to Kuwait in one box via FedEx.

Take a guess about the price they quoted me. Whoever makes the closest guess will win....well, nothing. You win the satisfaction of winning...heh.

 

1 whole kidney?

 

Boxed or unboxed dreamcasts?