The world famous unmoderated thread

"Then it boggles my mind when confronted with such a huge mess, that instead of trying to sort that mess out and catch the people who were actually involved in the 9-11 attacks, we invade Iraq instead. It's a war of opportunity, they've wanted to take down Saddam for a long time. Yeah oil may not be the whole reason, but it definetely is a major factor (say, 90% of the reason.)"

(See my comments above about oil.) I'm in a really minority opinion in that I don't like Bush, didn't vote for him, but I supported the invasion of Iraq. Try getting people to understand that when you have a discussion... heh.

The reasons are my own, but mostly it's becasue it's 2006 and the world does more to save the whales then people who are being slaughtered by their own government. That's the real sickening thing to me. Kill a Minke and the whole world will beat down your door. Kill a hundred thousand in your own country and people talk about how we should respect sovereign nations. Not acting against such people has killed more than all the wars ever fought. China...50,000,000...Russia....35,000,000....etc.

Saddam needed to go and the world was an embarrassment for letting him stay, including the US. There's no link between Saddam and terrorists, I fully agree with that, but it there was an opportunity to remove him. You can't invade based on my reasoning...again people don't really care what's happening thousands of miles away as long as they're fine where they're at. The only way a politician can justify war is to make people think they are in danger, then they will act. So I don't support the reasoning but I do support the invasion and in the end I don't give two shits about what politicians say anyway. They'll say whatever they want to get the people to follow them. That goes for those for and against the war.

 

I respect your point, but while I can see a need to try to remove Saddam on a purely human level, the problem is, what happens now? You've got a country full of people who've had their homes destroyed, relatives and friends murdered, and lives ruined, by the West. Is it so hard to believe that some of these people would now want to become suicide bombers? The reality is that Iraq is now full of the very same terrorists that are blowing up cities all over the world, and that reality was caused by bombing the shit out of Iraq.

 

By the west? Last I checked, the US isn't bombing Iraqi homes just for the hell of it, or suicide-bombing mosques in the name of Allah. US doesn't do that, but I'm not saying the US military is perfect either, but when it fucks up it has Congress to check it and scold when it does (Haditha). It is true that there wouldn't be any of this terrorism in Iraq if it weren't for the USA, but then Sadam would be in power threatening nearby countries like Iran, Kuwait, Saudi, Syria, which whom they really didn't like in the first place.

You have to remember that the citizens of those countries are highly controlled by their government just as Sadam was with his citizens. You have to constantly make sure that what you might say might not offend someone who knows someone in the government who can pull a few strings so that you won't say such a thing ever again. A lot of the citizens there are not really happy with their lives. It is their governments fault for not letting them do what is necessary to have a better life because they are afraid of losing control. It is as simple as that. Losing power and they will do whatever it takes to keep it.

You have to realize that there is a lot of shit to deal with in the ME that is bound to be brought up one way or another. Why do you think Israel is acting the way it is now? Because they are sick and tired of being threatened by all sides of their border and have the world like UN not do anything about it. Hezbollah is a terrorist group, UN recognizes taht, but you don't see them sending in troops to that region to dismantle them, do you? Because they don't want more shit to hit the fan, they are happy with the way things are and hope that the price of oil comes down as long as those countries supporting Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. are kept happy as a clam.

Of course, there are economic motives behind the actions taking place in ME. Sadly, if it weren't for it, then there wouldn't be any action being taken, otherwise we'd be in Africa as well helping those in Darfur, but again you don't see them being talked about on National news prime-time. Eventually though society will change to the point where economic incentive is not a deciding factor on humanitarian aid.

 

Where did I say "for the hell of it"? I'm sorry you interpretted it as such, but I was merely stating the fact that the west has caused a lot of loss of life. Don't take that and twist it so it looks like I'm saying we're doing it for no reason, of course there's a reason. We appear to see fairly eye to eye on it, too - we just disagree on the justification.

"Suicide bombing mosques in the name of Allah"? Perhaps not, but certainly bombing hospitals in the name of democracy.

I doubt that.

 

"You've got a country full of people who've had their homes destroyed, relatives and friends murdered, and lives ruined, by the West."

Agreed.

In the end I put my faith in a long enough time line when things will become better for them. I think a child born in Iraq today will have the chance to do much more with his or her life when they are 18. There would have been death and destruction under Saddam without any hope for the future. I guess what I'm saying is that if you have to go through hell make sure there's something waiting for you at the end.

 

Yeh I kinda interpreted as that, but I understand what it is your saying. None of this wouldn't have happened if the US or west stepped in. I guess you could say that the west is the catalyst for change in that region. The ultimate goal for our (by 'our' I mean West) intervention is to create a stable region.

I don't understand what you're trying to convey from that statement. Are you referring to what the US did during the invasion of Iraq or what Israel did?

I wouldn't say that if there are more NGOs and non-profit companies/groups out there now that are helping out countries/people in need than there were 10 years ago. There are more groups taking more realistic approaches to worldwide problems and actually seeing results that will stay around in the long-run and not require such help again in the future.

 

By what, selling them all guns? Aren't we failing pretty drastically?

I was trying to contrast what you were offering as our upstanding moral position (we're not suicide bombers, true) by saying that we are responsible for comparable atrocities.

Our economies are unsustainable and our natural resources are running out. These issues can be resolved, but they won't be, because they're too nebulous to directly impact the basic profit-driven corporate interests that are causing them. Why do you think we're still driving petrol and diesel engines?

(I'm going to leave that question rhetorical because I don't really want to cause a threadjack into the dubious nature of the oil industry)

 

What do you guys think about the 911 planned self attack theories?

 

There was a thread on 9/11 a couple of months ago, probably best to check that out rather than drag it up again.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaB1psXTjS4

 

Nice link WolverineDK. I didn't know Depeche Mode had made that track. I bet it won't get a lot of air time in the States :lol:

Yakumo

 

That can't be the real music video for the song. Funny parody nonetheless.

 

See, what angers me is that we were lied to about the motive for this. Saddam was removed, that's a positive thing however you look at it.

But the fact is no one cared when Saddam was in the process of killing all of his own people. That's a reason everyone uses to justify the war, but when it was actually going on no one over here gave a crap. He was our ally back then anyway.

No one cared when ten years of sanctions decimated the people of Iraq and didn't do much to topple Saddam at all. No medicine or medical equipment was allowed becasue it had a "dual use." In the meantime over a million Iraqui children died in the 90s (that figure is from amnesty international btw.)

In fact, no one really cared when he invaded Kuwait in the first Gulf war. The whole "dumping babies out of incubators" story was total bullshit, the Kuwaiti royal family hired a Washington PR firm to sell the story to the American masses. After every politician repeated that particular sound-bite over and over and over, suddenly it became "truth." I'm sure everyone knows this story.

This time it was supposed to be about weapons of mass destruction, which we all knew weren't there. Why did they have to lie about the motive, why not just say "We want to invade becasue Saddam is a murderous bastard and we're sick of his shit?"

Becasue that's not good enough. Telling the truth is never good enough. The truth is our economy is based on cheap energy. Without American domination in the middle east the oil is going to dry up (peak oil hits in 2012, get ready for the $10 gallon. Better buy a hybrid.) If we control Iraq, Iran, and Afganistan, we get to decide who gets the oil and who doesn't. But no politician will ever admit that, becasue that's how we do things in this country. We give the illusion of being rightous, then take what we want no matter who gets killed. That's what living in the capital of empire means.

 

$10/gallon? Yeh it is a possibility but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Oil companies are researching new ways in extracting oil from coal, and other sources. With the profit they are making they can acutally invest in those ventures which so far look promising. BIO fuel looks like it will actually take off because it benefits both sides of the fence but I read on slashdot that it will increase water consumption if mega bio-fuel farms crop up in this country and other countries as well.

As for Iran and N. Korea. Russia and china need to get their s hit to together and realize that they are siding with a losing party since they can strong arm those countries and let diplomacy work for a change, but then again those countries are after what we are implicitly after in all of this mess, cheap energy.

 

"But the fact is no one cared when Saddam was in the process of killing all of his own people. That's a reason everyone uses to justify the war, but when it was actually going on no one over here gave a crap. He was our ally back then anyway."

People care, governments don't. It's not the government's job to care, it's their job to protect. That's a big problem in the way the world is set up. You and I care about starving North Koreans, our governments don't.

About Saddam being an ally, I don't see how that makes his removal today any less credible. Saying we made a mistake back then doesn't mean we should continue the same mistake today. And remember, those governments and people who did not want to remove Saddam wanted to continue the status quo of keeping him in power.

" This time it was supposed to be about weapons of mass destruction, which we all knew weren't there."

Actually, everyone thought they were there. There's been a point of view that people believed he did not have them before the war started that has gained ground recently for whatever reason. Just about every government agreed that he probably had something and so did the UN weapons inspectors. The only question is what to do about it....more inspections or use force to make him comply?

"Why did they have to lie about the motive, why not just say "We want to invade becasue Saddam is a murderous bastard and we're sick of his shit?""

It's sad, but that's not a good enough reason for most in today's world. It is for me, but I'm different I guess and I supported the war for that reason alone. You're right about most people not caring and not wanting to get involved. Governments have to tell their people that they are directly threatened before they'll be allowed to act. Selling the humanitarian angle won't get you much of anything.

 

Bush's approval rating is at about 30%, so I'm guessing that video would get a lot of support. Europeans tend to forget that 50% of the people didn't vote for Bush (myself included). There are some interesting articles about how the European media has ignored the American anti-war/anti-Bush crowd thus making them believe we all like and support him. It tends to make it easier to use the word "Americans" as one single group with the same thoughts and beleifs.

 

Well, I think the video is great, and the song is from their newest album called Playing The Angel, but I just felt that bushwagger should get a beating, and it felt right to do. And no I don´t like the new album, and well the concert I was in Aarhus (don´t you dare pronounce it Arhus, it is pronounce "orhoos") aa = å. By the way. was the worst experience I had in years, Aarhus is dead after 10 oclock in the evening, and there are more going on in Aalborg , and Aarhus is the second biggest town in DK, so it was a shock about that. Aalborg is also one of our "big" cities. Anyway the whole train trip to Aarhus was great, and we met a person who we had trawling with us all through the day, and that was great fun.

But the concert started , and ended about 1 hour, and 45 later so we were finished at 00:00, and the sad thing was, when they had played only 17(ish) songs (a normal concert has about 20 songs). they shouted (David gayhan) "thank you, and good night, see you next time , the usual shit". And we thought, "yeeeha now it is time for the old encore songs, like Just Can´t Get Enough, Everything Counts, you know the good old classics with Never Let Me Dow Again, and so forth

But we stood their for about 20 minuttes, and we thought "where the fuck are encore songs ?" but they didn´t come, and then all "20.000" (ish) walked very slowly to the exit, and I was VERY disapointed (heck I even saw fight during my walk out of the stadium), and I knew then, that it was the last time I would ever go to a Depeche Mode concert again, since DM are in for all the money, and they were money horny whores, every single one of them. (yeah, you could even order, the recording from liveherenow.com), since they recorded the show. Do you think my tale is over ? no sorry there is more about that Danish "hilbilly redneck" sleeping town, when we walked , my sister, our buddy, and me walked, since we thought we could catch an early train home, so we walked fast, and we thought "we are going to make it, and yeeeha, and so forth", well we "did" , but the train was only to Odense, and no way in fucking hell was there a DSB train from Aarhus to Copenhagen at that hour, first two hours later , and then we cursed DSB to hell in more ways than one.

And then we walked over the one of the two 7/11´s there were open, and we bought something to eat, and something to drink, and we all bought smokes. And then I bought three "logs" http://www.johnskagehus.insiteout.dk/products.php?tid=2&sub_id=9&cake_id=42

(here you can see the "log")

And I said , he should take them from the middle, since there were three different variants, and then he asked me again, "from the middle ?", and I said "yes , there are three lines, where is the middle then ?" (yeah I know that is a dumbass comment, but you don´t have to be stupid), and then I ordered two packs of 20 corner reds 100 (milimetres aka. long), and then he asked me , because maybe he had either trouble hearing in that overfilled 7/11 shite shop. Or perhaps he felt offended... Of what I wanted of Corners again (some Danes are stupid no doubt about that, and they shouldn´t try ever to get offended by what you are saying, since you say it clearly enough). So then we had bought our stuff, and we walked down the streets, where we found out by a freak accident, that about 20-100 metres away, there was another 7/11 (WTF I say !?!)
, and then we found a place to take a leak. And I met some fine sweet young women, who asked for a light, and of course, I flipped up the Zippo, and gave them light. And well we had taken our leak. And then we looked around
and checked how Aarhus by night was like, and well Aarhus sucks, there is more life in my stinking ghetto town, and I am not joking at night . So anyway, we got down to the train station, and we waited, and we froze our buttocks off, and well "a shot of brilliance" by the motherfuckers of DSB they had locked almost every coupe shut, except for three wagons, or so .

So here we "suddenly were trapped" with about 500 to 1500 DM fans at 2 at night, and we were stuck, and I had claustrophobia in a VERY bad way, and I was SO close punching a guy in the face, since we were like herrings in a barrel(a Danish saying of how little room we had), (our personal safety borders were violated , more than you can ever imagine, not even the rush hour in Japan can be compared , about how little space we had to ones self), and then train was riding the usual shit in snail speed, meaning, it wasn´t a fast train , it was one of the slow ones, so we drove through Jutland in snailspeed, and ended up at Funen (Fyn in Danish), and our mate got off, and then when we were on Zeeland(Sjælland in Danish), then sudden the stupid train officers got a "bright idea" why don´t we open the whole train now ? then I had it, and sat down, and smoked a cigarette, and I didn´t care about the nonsmoking rule. And well when this hell was finally over, then I was home at 6 in the morning.


No I don´t like Bush, but I also know alot of Americans doesn´t like him either. So Japan-Games.com I wasn´t implying, that I am onesided, since in Denmark they also get a multiviewed news broadcast. I just felt the video was very fitting.
And no I haven´t bought Playing The Angel.

 

YIou should buy it. it's a good album. You just don't know DM ;-).

 

LOL, ROFL, ROFLMAO yes, I see the twinkle in your eye. But no the first time I heard the complete album, I wanted to vomit. And well I know DM, I have heard them ever since 1993, and I have heard all their albums. And alot of remixes, and bootlegs, and their three early tracks, Addiction (some people call the song Ghost Of Modern Time), Reason Man, Television set, and their early cover "I Like It" (by the Everly brothers, if I recall correctly) and I heard that cover from a great live recording from 1982 called "Toys" (it was pobably a soundboard recording) , and I have seen very early footage of them (bootleg video from 1981), so I can pretty sure say, that I know them. And I have heard the studio recording from BBC called "Let's Get Together" where Dave sings, and well the information is this

An early DM song, was aired on a BBC show with Dave talking about the first era. Also there's a Demo with Vince on lead Vocals. Probably he used this song in Yazoo.

and the song Tomorrow's Dance

Performed by DM on the first tour available on some bootlegs.

other kinds of info can be found here, but some of it sounds like fakes to me

http://www.yazoo.org.uk/unreleased/unrelased.htm

 

Sorry bro, nobody thought they were there. Nobody except the neocons and thier shills in the media *cough FOX cough.* Remember back to 2001, it took a lot of convincing for the American public to get behind this war. It took Colin Powell to go up in front of the UN and lie his ass off over satilitte photos to convice the rest of the world. Becasue Scott Ridder and the UN weapons inspectors repeatedly stated there was no evidence of a nuclear program. If your memory is foggy then google the report and read it again, no evidence.

And hey, what did they find? Three quarts of nerve gas? A gallon of biotoxin? What happened to the 40,00 tons of germ bombs Powell said they had? Where are the mobile weapons labs those spy pictures he showed us of? Don't tell me they can't find the shit becasue the have the ability to read a fucking license plate from orbit. They dug Saddam out of a shit hole with no problem. You mean to tell me they can find one man guarded by the elite red guard in his own country riddled with safe houses but they can't find fourty thousand gallons of biotoxin? Bullshit!

They used us, that's what happened. They keep people dumbed down with bullshit car-chase news and religious baloney so we get scared everytime something bad happens, then they run away with all the money. What about that time Condaliza Rice made that "Mushroom Cloud" statement? As if a country like Iraq would ever dare a nuclear attack on us, yet people ate it all up.

You know a lot of people get mad when foreigners bag on Americans for being so fucking stupid, but how can you blame them when we let our government get away with lying to us like this? Too many people got hornswaggled by the footage of the twin towers falling down being played over and over and over and were too busy tying yellow ribbons around thier car antennas to pay attention when it came to vote, now look what happened.

Need I remind you all, in 2000 there was no war. Now there are two of them and we're gearing up for another one with Iran which will happen if they think they can get away with it. In 2000 gas was 1.70 a gallon. As of yesterday in Los Angeles it was $3.29, that's a 200% increase in six years. That's more than the whole fucking decade of the 1990s. The national debt was on it's way to being paid off. Not anymore, now we're over 8 TRILLION dollars in debt. Here's the current number as of 8/21/06 (taken from the US National Debt clock)

$8,507,441,703,641

Eight trillion, five hundred and seven billion, four hundred and fourty one million, seven hundred and three thousand, six hundred and fourty one dollars. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? You know what? I refreshed the page and the number went up a billion dollars, in like a second.

The country is a fucking joke, and the assholes in the white house made it that way, in less that two presidential terms. All it took was one terrorist attack to put us all to sleep. How the hell did this happen?