Virtua Fighter 3(Shenmue) on Sega Saturn

TVC 15, I can't thank you enough for that earlier response - it was the kind of lengthy, well-measured and constructive post I honestly could read forever, so again first allow me to express my gratitude at the time you've obviously spent writing such a fantastic alternative to my own views! Next, how about I cover some of the points you mentioned?

You're absolutely correct to assume that I'm just another die-hard fan, particular the kind who's absorbed far too much information over the years. My purpose has never been to deceive the online community, but after so long I just lost track of specific sources, which I can understand may give the impression I'm making a lot of this "knowledge" up as I go along.

While it's true that I've never met Yu Suzuki, it took me a very long time to gain the trust of those who have experienced this honour, including journalists far higher up the ladder than I'll probably ever get. For the record, my real field of expertise isn't even videogaming, though over the years a few in this sector have opened up to me about Suzuki's off-the-record policy regarding any talk of his failed projects.

Naturally, his opinion on the issue of Saturn VF3 is something he doesn't want openly publishing, and one lesson I've learned from past mistakes is to avoid publically naming figures who I suspect don't want to be plagued by questions from people with less restraint than ourselves - not that I'm saying anyone here would ever do this, of course.

As for those recurring emulator screenshots, by detailing first hand accounts of actual Saturn code it is my hope that some day perhaps we'll stop having to explain their genuine background. From my understanding, a very small number of outsiders have indeed witnessed Saturn VF3, or at least some preliminary tech demo work. Insider accounts are definitely much higher, but we have to consider that few may be able to disclose their recollections.

I think we can all safely agree that not even AM2 could reproduce such a high-end arcade title pixel-for-pixel on such a relatively underpowered console, yet there could be a hint with the Shenmue prototype footage. Despite exact figures not being available, I've no reason to doubt that Shenmue was something impressive, and the officially released material definitely speaks for itself.

On the other hand, although we lack any way of confirming exact performance levels, I agree that neither VF3 or Shenmue was reaching anything like the 500-750k that has now become some mythical benchmark. I don't actually recall from where this particular snowball originated, but it was definitely a programmer back in the immediate pre-Dreamcast period and most likely someone answering to reports at the time.

For those who don't remember, there was a very brief period in mid-to-late '98 when a few insiders generated quite a lot of buzz about a Saturn version of VF3 being up and running. However, they also revealed not too long after that Sega wasn't sure what to do with this, as the company was seen to be pushing Genki's conversion for the Dreamcast, regardless of any reservations being shown behind closed doors about their suitability to handling such a challenge.

Following this point, all talk of Saturn VF3 was quickly brushed under the carpet, and for years we didn't even know it was officially cancelled - just compare how open Yu Suzuki was in announcing that AM2 would be taking responsibility for such a project, also taking into consideration his continued silence on the matter (despite my previous comment that behind closed doors he's been quite vocal, which I stress is one key detail we can prove).

Finally for now, I must apologise for what you perceive as my efforts to create a narrative history of AM2, affected by my own opinion regularly colouring the few concrete facts that we do possess. If my intention was to write the definitive article on AM2, I'd definitely ask for your help as it's clear you definitely share my passion for keeping the faith.

In addition to this important aspect, you also seem to fully understand the political background at Sega and appear to know all too well that getting anywhere with research on Saturn VF3 is very much hard work. I'd absolutely love to know how you intend to ascertain technical facts, and being someone with an open nature (plus a few sources that can indeed be checked), if I could provide any assistance then please don't hesitate to ask...

P.S. I'm not normally one to be so outspoken, but how can anyone honestly buy into the rumour that's built up around those emulator shots? Even if the Saturn was theoretically capable of generating 750k polygons per second, the visual quality seen in these images would still be outside its limitations! Also, wasn't it verified (in a Japanese magazine report from May '98) that Saturn VF3 ran at half the frame rate of its Model 3 counterpart?

 

Not true. In 1999 EVERY Japanese arcade I went to had a few VF3 systems and I did go to a lot of arcade back then.

 

I believe he wasn't speaking directly towards the success of the VF3 Cab in Japanese market. I saw it more along the lines of its success worldwide. At least that's what i got from it, and if it is what he meant... then he's correct.

 

Ah, in that case you could say the same thing about many games I guess.

 

I had to go to London to play VF3 for the first time. In a Namco Arcade noless. At the time too they had a 30% done version of Tekken 3 I spent alot of time on.

Good times.

 

Yes you can... but you can't with VF2 (which was the game he was comparing to VF3's Success or lack of outside JPN territory)

 

These are not saturn pictures.......but pictures of an subpar emulation with some effects turned off(Pai without Goround Shading)

By the way even the impressing shenmue saturn screens. They are only 100% saturn screens if they run on a saturn console.....(no dev kit enhancements or speed up tricks)
But the typical saturn graphic glitches......show that those clips are more believable stuff then other things on the net....

 

I would have to think that work on VF3 on the saturn progressed at least a tiny bit further than what Yakumo's brother saw, if only because Janet in Fighters Megamix is actually Aoi. Which kinda meshes with Yakumo's story, seeing as, if Aoi was dancing on the screen in the demo, she was obviously the first character they worked on.

 

I never thought of that. It does make perfect sense when you think about it.

As for those emulated shots. There is NO WAY a Saturn could pull off detail that good at those resolutions. I'm as big of a Saturn fan as you can get but even I wouldn't even try to claim those pictures came from a Saturn.

 

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These same screenshots are from x-cult.org, pretty sure it was emulated, no way that saturn could hand all those polygons, and i think there is bump maping textures on the characters.

 

(Please make the most of this, as it's probably the shortest comment in a thread about Saturn VF3 that you'll ever see from me!)

 

True.
And I'm wondering how long people still post them as SAT-VF3-PROTO screenshots...

 

http://www.gametronik.com/site/fiche/mame/Virtua Fighter 3/

 

wow never knew that takarashi's(sumo) body was made of a such a low number of polygons....

 

Just before the first public footage of (arcade) VF3 was revealed at the 1996 AOU Show, Yu Suzuki gave a few interesting comments about its earliest stages of development, which occurred behind closed doors. For example, he originally intended for this game to run on the Model 2 board. In fact, there was even a preliminary version for this hardware designed to test new techniques - and presumably the dodge feature as well. However, production switched to Model 3 when his team hit a brick wall trying to execute two particular ideas that Suzuki had suggested for this sequel...

According to a quote printed in an issue of the UK official Sega Magazine, Aoi was created purely for the purpose of demonstrating realistic clothing movement. By contrast, Taka came to be as a result of experiments in producing a character with large body mass. His debut was supposed to have been at the E3, but AM2 experienced many difficulties adapting to Model 3 and used Jeffry to show off flexing muscles instead, delaying Taka's unveiling until the Tokyo Game Show. Because of VF3 hitting the Model 3's limits, a more powerful revision had to be made for later projects.

Linking back to the Saturn conversion again, if you look at the clips available online of unused costumes, the stages in VF3 were once quite basic. The subway level appears to be almost entirely flat with far less detail in its backgrounds, which suggests that AM2 was always thinking about how this game could technically be reproduced on Sega's console of the time. Finally for now, Suzuki was also once quoted as saying that his goal with Saturn VF3 had been to flawlessly reproduce the gameplay as opposed to focusing too much on recreating the coin-op's impressive graphics.

 

On the subject of VF3...

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm3706689

LOL!

 

People need to make an account to view videos on that site. So I'll rip it and upload it to YouTube for everyone to see. Pretty cool video.

EDIT: Bummer, looks like I can only get it with no audio.

 

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If there was a VF 3 on Saturn as speculated as it was. That would of been nice to see. Too bad it wasn't released if it really had all those attributes.