Virtua Fighter 3(Shenmue) on Sega Saturn

Everyone would of guessed I'd respond to this bouncing you speak of... Anyway, most likely yes. It was engine driven not animated, if that makes sense. So it need the power from the processor. It's the same for it in the next generation on Dead or Alive 2, the whole loading time was for the boobies.

 

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This thread is fascinating. I came here looking for information on Saturn Shenmue, but I got well educated about Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 and now I am really intrigued about what it would have looked like. It took me quite some time to read through all the comments, and I am mesmerized at Anthaemia's love for this seemingly lost piece of gaming history. Now, I know nothing about programming, but I believe that Saturn Shenmue should offer a some clues on what was being done with VF3. It has been suggested that the developers used a high-polygon version of the characters when they were shown alone on the screen, and that makes perfect sense if the main object was to show off what the Saturn was capable of doing visually. And since we have no reason to doubt what Anthaemia says, I am surprised at Sega compromising gameplay in favor of graphics. 30 fps would be seen as a major step down and would decrease the game's appeal at competitive circles, and I can clearly see why Sega pulled the plug on this version after all.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Saturn Shenmue much more complex regarding backgrounds than VF3 would ever be? There are some detailed and unorthodox (for their time) battlefields in VF3, but Saturn Shenmue manages to display extremely large environments with complex geometry and excellent textures, although the framerate usually drops to a crawl in very large areas. Of course we will never know if the framerate in the footage has been reworked, though. But my question is: doesn't Saturn Shenmue serve as evidence that at least in theory the Saturn could handle even VF3's most complex battlefields?

In fact, I am a huge Shenmue fan and I tried my best to find a worthy substitute for Saturn Shenmue on the system. The only other "pure" adventure game on the system with polygon graphics, as far as I know, is Fantastep. It is no technical marvel, however. The engine can't handle transparencies and the resolution seems to be much lower than the Playstation version. Maybe Yakumo has something to say about Saturn adventure games, but I spent quite some time on Segaga Domain and Fantastep is the closest thing I found to Shenmue on the Saturn (not counting, of course, the walking sections in Panzer Dragoon Saga). But this is going too far away from my point. My point (which can be interpreted as a question rather than an affirmation) is: Saturn Shenmue proves that VF3's complex backgrounds could be reproduced on the Saturn... right?

 

The VF3 backgrounds could indeed be recreated on the Saturn but here's the problem, the backgrounds would eat up a lot of CPU power and that's not good in a fighting game. You need a fighting game to run at least 30fps and the Saturn couldn't render such complicated backgrounds at 30fps and still deal with the complex calculations needed for a fighting game engine.

Fanta Step is also much more basic to be honest. It looks nice but the 3D areas in Panzer Dragoon Azel are better. Maybe a closer look at 3D Saturn world's would be Dark Stalker, Grandia or the likes of.

 

Takumo > You probably mean Dark Savior.

 

VF3 would have been lambasted if it came out at 30fps as it would have compromised how the whole game would play. The whole point of a port would to be game play faithful as previously stated in the thread. SS VF2 while 60fps, already wasn't faithful as it had inconsistent gravity and other hiccups which led players to leave it in the bin.

 

I'd wanted to write this message a long time ago...

If you're so interested, please carry the proverbial torch by reading through all of my old posts, compiling them together and sending the resulting document - or book? - to Sega. Hopefully the powers that be will see there's a continued passion out there for Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 and put it out in some form, even if it's just a short video as with the previously unseen Shenmue prototype.

Unfortunately, just as many old Resident Evil/Biohazard fans (such as Kim Larsen, founder of the Bioflames website) are no longer around to comment on the recent 1.5 restoration effort, I'll be enjoying my retirement from the scene not caring much for Saturn VF3 anymore. To be honest with you all, the enthusiasm hasn't been there for a while, as seen by the low number of posts I've been making lately. While I still check in every now and then, I've even put my long-promised Saturn related project on the backburner until my internal spark returns, if that ever happens at all!

You mean like how Tekken 3 on the PlayStation was lambasted for its reduced frame rate and lack of 3D backgrounds? AM2 knew they could afford a few visual compromises if the gameplay remained faithful, as proved by the massive success of VF2 for the Saturn in Japan, at least. Don't forget that VF2 had over a million pre-orders there alone, and it was definitely one of the Saturn's most popular titles here in the UK, thanks in part to the official magazine's support.

P.S. This is not the end. I'll definitely be back when the time is right, but for now I'm just enjoying actually playing games again rather than writing about them in great detail. At the moment, I'm naturally lapping up a certain "Magic Zombie Door" on my PSP and taking a break from the virtual to concentrate on more real world pursuits. If all goes to plan, I'll soon be able to marry two of my greatest passions, including graphic design and retro gaming.

 

1) I've been around since 2005 but I have increasingly less and less time to come here and comment. It took me three days just to find the time I needed to read every single detail in this thread alone, so I would love to help but I will probably not have the time to compile such a list. Nevertheless, I will e-mail Sega about the subject. They truly have no reason to be this secretive about their unreleased games. There are many of us who grew up playing the Sega Saturn and love this console, so why not throw a bone to old-time fans? The "new" Sega scares me.

2) I may be biologically impaired or something, but I certainly can't see a big difference between 30 and 60 fps. Sure, from 15 to 30 things are really, really different, but from 30 to 60 I see almost no difference at all. The animation is more fluid, I get it, but 80% or 90% of the general public can't even spot the differences.

3) I see your point and I'm almost at the same level when it comes to gaming. There are only a handful gaming websites I care to visit on a daily basis. Assembler Games, HG101, Siliconera... Ocasionally SMSPower, AtariAge and Romhacking.net for digging up previously lost gems, if any comes out at all. And that's pretty much it. I don't play games as much as I did ten years ago, and I am way more interested in reading about the 16 and 32 bit generation than playing any of the recent releases. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe this new generation brings nothing new except HD graphics, widescreen support and 60 fps. I come from a time when the Atari 2600 was the king of the hill, so the last thing I believe people should care about are the graphics.

And Yakumo, thanks for the answer. I mentioned Fantastep because this is the only genuine adventure game for the Saturn to be released in 3D. I know many other games have better graphics, but I was talking about a specific genre and could only come up with Fantastep after all.

 

Huh??? The frame rate was not compromised on the PS1 port. It ran at 60fps like its arcade brethren for the most part. Mind you it wasn't rock solid on the PS1 as it would dip here and there, but never enough to truly impact gameplay or become an issue when it would creep up. In respects to the 2D backdrops on the PS1 version, it was the most logical decision to make to preserve the feel of the arcade in terms of gameplay... In the end, its what matters the most. Furthermore, any additional compromises made for the ps1 port of Tekken 3 (Lower polygon count count on the character models, lower resolution) were made up for in sheer content alone. Console exclusive characters (Anna, Dr B, Gon), addition play modes like Tekken Force, Tekken Ball and endings for the entire cast etc.
Fact is, Both VF2, and Tekken 3 were marvelous achievements on their respective console patforms at the time. Lets not forget this!

 

Buddy, you have no idea what you're talking about. I've actually played VF competitively and placed in tourneys. My friends have done the same for Tekken.

Tekken 3 did not have any frame reductions, it has worse 3D overall but gameplay was not compromised like in SS VF2. Yes, VF2 sold over a million but it would have done much better had it been 100% gameplay faithful. You must remember that VF2 was the 2nd coming of SF2, it was by far the most popular fighter of the era in Japan and having a perfect port where players could practice would have boosted sales way beyond the 1 mil figure.

 

I recall plenty of magazines and websites back in 1998 criticising Namco for pursuing 60fps with the PlayStation conversion of Tekken 3 when the development team had previously set their targets so high. Instead of a truly flawless recreation of the arcade game, they settled for reduced graphical quality and still couldn't maintain a consistent frame rate (though I do admit the drops are hardly noticeable unless you're a seasoned player). Still, these kinds of compromises highlighted the huge difference between Namco and AM2, but it's not really a fair comparison when you look at just how far more advanced Virtua Fighter 3 was to its Tekken counterpart. AM2 knew they could recreate most of the backgrounds in VF2 using the Saturn's multi-plane parallax scrolling capabilities, and with advances in the Sega Graphics Library set it was even possible by Fighters Megamix to reinstate the previously missing wall surrounding Wolf's stage. I'm sure that the VF3 engine could even have managed the infamous bridge over Shun's arena, but sadly I guess we'll never know just how much AM2's programmers had learned in that final two years of the Saturn's life... outside of the Shenmue prototype video, of course!

 

I don't think it's fair compare what happened to VF2 on Saturn/Model 2 to what happened to Tekken 3 on PS1/System 12.

The PS1 was architecture wise IDENTICAL to the arcade hardware and the only difference is that the arcade hardware had more CPU power (higher clock) and twice the memory. So it wasn't a port at all, just the game could run on the exact same hardware while enjoying a little more slack for better animations along with more memory for better texturing.

Saturn version of VF2 was a port to a completely different hardware. A lot of work had been poured on that.

 

Whatever magazine you were reading that was critical on Namco for pursuing 60fps port of Tekken 3 on PS1 were quite frankly Stupid! It would have been far more critical of Namco had they chose to port the game with a lower framerate as it would ultimately effect gameplay. Good for Namco's Tekken Project for setting those targets so high and put gameplay above visual fidelity. That outcome and decision making alone shows me how smart of a development team they really are.

If that means having a home conversion that replicates the gameplay aspect of the arcade as best as possible, then the visual trade off is worth it! Think if it was the opposite outcome... "a flawless recreation of the arcade game" in a visual sense but at the cost of gameplay performance. This reminds me of the grizzly outcome that was Capcom's Marvel Super Heroes on both Saturn and PS1. On the Saturn, the game tries SO hard to graphically represent the visuals in the arcade, that the gameplay and performance of the port takes a major nosedive as a result. While the PS1 port of the same game, makes respectable visual sacrifices to provide an overall better and more enjoyable conversion.

 

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MSH on the Saturn is not innocent of this. Mind you is has less frames of animation cut but it still performs worse than the PS1 port with more slowdown and longer load times.

 

It's a bit better than "a little more slack". 50% faster CPU/GPU clock, twice the main ram, twice the graphics ram, flash rom instead of cd for near instant loading. I'm not convinced the CPU & GPU are only just clocked higher as well, there may be other improvements (the revision of the GPU in the PSOne is faster for some operations than the earlier ones for instance).

The backgrounds in the arcade game are 3D while the backgrounds in the port are 2D. I agree it would be easier than a decent port of a model 3 game to Saturn, where you probably wouldn't have much code that would just drop in.

Tekken Tag Tournament pushes System 12 even harder.

 

I agree. Saturn wasn't even capable of exact ports of Model 1 games. While Saturn VF2 was incredible in many ways, especially the higher-then-arcade screen resolution and 60fps framerate, I just cannot see how a stock Saturn could possibily handle a graphically decent conversion of VF3, much less a pixel perfect version.

Even with a Saturn upgrade using a PowerVR1, 3DFX Voodoo1 or 3DO M2, VF3 would've had to have back scaled back, dramatically.

The only reasonable solution for an outstanding Saturn VF3 would be a Lockheed Martin Real3D chip upgrade, based around the mid-range Real3D/100 (which included geometry, graphics and texture processors). Even then a Saturn VF3 could still not be graphically the same as the Model 3 version, because Model 3 relied on two high-end Real3D/Pro-1000 GPUs.

 

In de book "the rise and fall of sega", Sam Pettus writes as follows:
Yu Suzuki and his staff at AM2 had finished a considerably scaled-down Saturn port of VF3 by 3 July 1998(probably using the mythical Shenmue Softwarelibrary SDK 2.0), but by the time Sega of Japan was dead set against releasing it, because of the Dreamcast port.....the game was officially cancelled on 17. September 1998. Nextgen reported that the 64 Bit Modul Expansion Codename Eclipse was already cancelled on the 23 of June 1997.

So if this is true VF3 probably would have looked like an improved Version of VF2(notably more polygons for the fighters and better background implementation). That means high res polygon fighters (as in VF2 or Last Bronx, not as ugly as the low res Fighting Vipers and Megamix efforts). Much better implemented highres backgrounds a la Last bronx(playfield and 2D sprites for objects). But certainly plain battlegrounds(rotating playfield).

The only evidence left of that work is Jill with her Aoi moves in Fighters Megamix and the beautiful but plain VF3 desert stage that belonged to wolf....
Looking on this new information.....Shenmue was also running without a cart, but was developed with the much improved SDK 2.0 that allowed a better exploitation of parallel processing nature of the saturn hardware(2x SH2 and 2x VDP). Hopefully we will see some sort of pictures of saturn VF3.....if it really existed.....December 2013 20th VF anniversary would be nice ;-P

Certainly there was still room left for graphical improvement after Vf2, but strange enough...the later fighting games looked worse, maybe with the exception of last bronx.

By the way any comparison of saturn VF3 with saturn shenmue are some sort of stupid. Because VF3 had to be a 60 frames game. The backgrounds(2D play field NR.1) and ring(2d play field Nr.2) could have worked without a single polygon (introducing again the VF2 ring out nature in all stages). Shenmue could have worked with 20-30 frames and had to use polygons in the whole environment! No idea which game would have looked better, it's like comparing the panzerdragoon saga in town engine with VF2 engine, ....."doesn't make much sense to me......Grimlock"

 

I've already briefly covered this in another thread, but here are just a few examples of non-AM2 fighting games that pushed the envelope after the release of Virtua Fighter 2 (in my opinion, at least):

D-Xhird
Savaki
Last Bronx
All Japan Pro Wrestling Featuring Virtua
K-1 Fighting Illusion Shou

P.S. According to analysis of the Shenmue video, the prototype was running at between 12 and 15 frames per second - of course, this is assuming the speed of that footage wasn't altered in post production! Also, let's not forget that Virtua Fighter Kids, Fighters Megamix and Digital Dance Mix were the results of AM2 research into how they could recreate the animations of VF3 on the Saturn for the conversion first promised by Yu Suzuki himself during the "Power Up" conference back in late 1996...

 

Don't forget D-Xhird runs only with 30 frames, animation also looks poor....but the stages look very nice!
Last Bronx maybe the best example.....but the fighters look inferior too VF2(fighter textures)...okay the have polygon weapons and the fences also use polygons.....sometimes there is flickering(winning posses). But the stages are so much improved in comparison to VF2 or fighting vipers.....awesome implementation of saturns 2D engine...almost seems real 3D....a work of art...great work am3!
savakis frame rate is awesome.....with fence....theres even a roof. sadly all the stages look the same. if a little developer could achieve such results...what would sega have done with a big budget, sdk 3.1 and the manpower of am2 behind it...in VF3.
don't forget anarchy in the nippon...a very polished fighter....