Are there pictures, info on the Saturn 3D upgrade ?

I remember Assembler said there were pictures of the Saturn 3D upgrade.

It was said to be a cartridge that used a 3D accelerator chip or chipset.

Although Sega might have had more than one Saturn upgrade in development like they had more than one new next-gen console in development in 1997 (Black Belt and Katana).

Some of the candidates for the chip that powered the Saturn 3D upgrade cartridge:

Lockheed Martin Real3D/100. This is neither the very highend chip used in Model 3 (Real3D/Pro-1000) nor the very lowend chip used for consumer graphics (i740) in 1997 but something inbetween, and closer in architecture to the Pro-1000, just not as powerful. In its PCI card form, it Had seperate geometry, texture and graphics processors. It was previewed in mid 1995. I could imagine this 3-chip architecture integrated onto 1 chip by 1997 to make it more feasible for lowcost. Real3D/100 would've allowed for good translations of MODEL 3 games, with high image quality, just withwith fewer polys/s. MODEL 3 with 2x Real3D/Pro 1000: 1,000,000 square polys/sec, 2,000,000 triangles/sec. Real3D/100: 750,000 triangles/sec. In practice the Real3D/100 is more powerful than 3Dfx Voodooo1 which had a peak of 350,000 textured polys/sec with features on and 250,000 /sec in games. The 750,000 /sec for Real3D/100 is not an inflated figure but what could actually be achieved. So Real3D/100 was probably 3x Voodoo1 in realworld performance. It would've made for an absolutely awesome upgrade for Saturn if it could've fit into a cartridge for Saturn and if Saturn's bus was fast enough. Well, if the original 3DO could've been upgraded with M2 accelerator, I don't see why Saturn couldn't have been upgraded with Real3D/100.


PowerVR PCX-1 or PCX-2. The two first generation PowerVR chips with a fraction of the performance of the PowerVR2DC chip in Dreamcast. These chips had less realworld performance than Sega's MODEL 2 or Namco's System 22 boards, but more performance than either PS1 or N64, higher resolution.



3DO M2 - There were many reports about a Sega/3DO or Sega/Matsushita deal in late 1995, early 1996 around the time that Matsushita bought the M2 technology for about $100 million. This would've been a stronger chipset for Sega than the PowerVR PCX-1 or PCX-2, but not as powerful as the Lockheed Real3D/100. Still, with M2, Sega could've had beyond MODEL 2 performance for low cost, and the ability to have much downgraded but decent translations of MODEL 3 games.


Nvidia NV2. By far the worst of the candidates. This chip was in development for a console to replace Saturn, although since it was one of the earliest efforts at Sega to go beyond the poor 3D ability of Saturn, I suppose it could've been considered for an upgrade to the Saturn rather than a new console. NV2 I am guessing would've been below the quality/performance of the N64 and 3Dfx Voodoo. Not able to handle MODEL 2 games well enough much less MODEL 3. Not worth bothering.



Now I'd like to know what was acually inside the Saturn upgrade cart. There's never been any pics or confirmation on what it was. This is the best place on the internet for stuff like this. I believe that sooner or later, the info will come to light, and first on Assemblergames.

 

I'd put my money on NV2, but I have no idea.

 

I don't because, NV2 was canceled before the Saturn 3D upgrade was really talked about heavily in game mags.

Core was porting Tomb Raider II to the upgrade in 1996, IIRC.

 

If Core were porting Tomb Raider 2 to this new upgrade cart then maybe it would be easier to get in touch with them? Western studios seem to let a few secrets out far more often than the Japanese.

Yakumo

 

in 1996?????????' that's too early!!!

well,, and why a saturn 3d upgrade? console was underestimated, and sega knew how to extract it's full force (shenmue...pds...) in 1996 by the time virtua cop 1 & 2, sega rally and vf2 were released no one doubted of saturn's potential..

strange..but maybe true..

 

I recall reading about the upgrade in an official Greek Saturn ad in an old greek Gamepro magazine. About 1996-7

 

I put my money on the Real3D/100 since Lockheed and SEGA were working closely at the time.............on world domination:lol:

I think the whole mess with Saturn's low 3D capabilities and the 32X were all becos some SOJ suit panicked at PSX's T-Rex demo, and thought they had to put something on the Saturn to make it somehow able to counter it.

It would've have been wiser to release and support the 32X even earlier (think august-september 94) and keep the Genesis going through 95 with it, then release a Real3D-based Saturn (like built around it, instead of just Saturn+Addon) in early 96, before the N64.

After all its no secret that several PSX early adopters were ex-Snes users who couldnt wait for N64, but I remember there was a lot of peer pressure at the time to move into 32bits, but I bet that if SEGA hadnt released the Saturn so early the PSX would've suffered from a 3DO-like effect were the console is too expensive (you could get a Genesis+32X and a Snes at the day for less than PSX's launch MSRP) and being a newcomer it had no previous userbase to get the console for brand loyalty.

Ergo SEGA would've had more than enough time to get a more powerful and less-rushed Saturn (BTW, I'll never understand why they called it Saturn instead of Genesis 2, since that brand was very popular at the time).

 

They'd already released the "Genesis 2" - a cut-down/stream-lined form of the original Genesis console.

 

Thats the "new" Genesis, the big one being the "original" one, it says so on the 32X manual.

Only in Japan and Europe they called it MD2. On a side note, the Saturn should have been called GigaDrive there as it was originaly intended.

 

x

 

Now that you mention that there were lots of rumors about a PowerPC CPU for Saturn.

Maybe the upgrade was meant to replace the dual SH2, since as far as I know the PPC was more powerful and easier to code.

 

or maybe the upgrade was refering to let am2 do things like shenmue, and not the retarded people that did sega touring car , house of dead and manxtt ports. ^^

 

What, Core as in Core Design, bought by Eidos in 1996, and who closed and had their assets sold to Rebellion 10 years later? Good luck with that!! ;-)

Western studios won't give out any information on proprietary Sega hardware, as they are still covered by their NDA with Sega. Eidos especially won't!

 

The upgrade supposedly plugged into the rear expansion port (used for the MPEG card) and not the cartridge port. But it's just a rumour. I doubt an extra CPU was used, if such an expansion existed. There is no way Tomb Raider 2 was being ported to it either, Sony paid for it to be a PS1 exclusive. The Saturn could have easily managed it on base hardware.

Tantalus weren't retarded, they were actually quite skilled. The problem was that Sega gave them insanely short development time to port down Model2 games onto complex hardware (the Saturn). Blame Sega, not them.

 

Yep, Tantalus did a very good job on Manx TT and even though The House of the Dead looks like crap (Texture wise) it still plays and sounds just like the arcade :nod: As for Touring Cars, that was ported by the Japanese company CRI who are well known for shite ports. The odd thing is that CRI's Aero Dancing series on the Dreamcast were actually very good and they also did the Saturn port of Virtual On believe it or not, which was also very good.

Yakumo

 

Making it just for a couple games would've been the pinacle of addon stupidity at SEGA.

And tantalus didnt make STC, it was CRI...

 

1996 is not too early. You don't seem to understand that SEGA was planning an upgrade or replacement for Saturn as far back as late 1994, before the Saturn was released in Japan. By 1995, Sega was working on several different upgrade (and replacement) plans for Saturn. Mind you, none of these would've been released in 1994 or 1995, the plans that I've heard about all revolved around introduction in 1996 or 1997.

 

x

 

The PowerPC CPU upgrade for Saturn would have been only part of the upgrade, it would've been most likely used with a Lockheed Real3D graphics chip or chipset.

The Saturn 2 was going to be either an upgrade or possibily even a new standalone console. Much like how the 3DO Bulldog/M2 was planned to be both an upgrade and a new console. In the later years of M2 development, the upgrade accelerator for the original 3DO was dropped and M2 was going to be a seperate console. With Saturn 2, the PowerPC would've been the host /front end for the Real3D chip, either way.

The idea of the Saturn 2 being used as upgrade for Saturn, at least the Lockheed Real3D + PowerPC upgrade (one of many) was to use the existing Saturn for its CD-ROM drive, I/O (maining controller inputs), power supply, and probably the audio subsystem which was fine. the point was to save money.
The twin SH-2 CPUs, VDP1, VDP2 and other processors wouldn't be used for anything to do with 3D graphics. I doubt even the RAM in the existing Saturn would be used for 3D stuff.

However, Saturn 2 was still more likely going to be a new standalone console.


see this article, Next Generation - November 1995
(it was probably written in late summer or early fall of that year).



The planned Saturn 2, if it had used the Real3D/100 that was reported, would've been roughly, more or less, twice as powerful as 3DO Matsushita M2 in terms of graphics.

Real3D/100 could handle 750,000 texture mapped, gouraud shaded, lit polygons/sec with all or most rendering features on including anti-aliasing. BTW, Lockheed did not BS about the performance of their chips and systems, unlike companies like 3Dfx, Nvidia, Videologic, ATI, S3 and even 3DO.

The M2 could handle 700,000 textured polys/sec and more like 300,000 to 400,000 with all features on. That's going by 3DO's figures that I remember, that's also probably best-case, if 3DO was BS'ing, it could've been less.


The reported Saturn 2 was not as powerful as the actually-released Dreamcast (at least 3M polys/sec) in 1998 but still very powerful for the time. The spec was reported in 1995, it was planned for release in late 1996. Roughly 4-5 times the poly performance of N64 (750k / 160K)
more powerful than 3Dfx Voodoo1 (750K / 250K )
PowerVR1 (750K / 200K )
and Sega's MODEL2 board (750K / 300K)

Powerful enough to handle upgraded MODEL 2 games and downgraded but decent conversions of MODEL 3 games. No Saturn 2 was not as powerful as MODEL 3, (1.5M / 750K) but closer to MODEL 3 than Saturn was to MODEL 2. As for the base Saturn's polygon performance, I do not go by the 500,000 texture-mapped, 200,000 textured, gouraud shaded figure from Sega. That makes Saturn sound alot more powerful than it really was, and too favorable compared to the 300,000 textured polys/sec of MODEL 2. In reality Saturn didn't handle real polygons at all. but that's another topic really. We all know Saturn was not even remotely close to the polygon performance of MODEL 2.
That's the main reason an upgrade of various kinds was considered, or a quick replacement all together.

 

I could go with this plan. Not release the original Saturn in 1994,1995 as it was at all. Instead release a powerful 3D-based Saturn in late 1996, based on the Real3D/100 chip. This was one of the plans Sega apparently considered. (see the article Ive posted below)

This version of Saturn (what was described as Saturn 2 in NG magazine) would've blown the PlayStation and Nintendo 64 out of the water. Also would've beaten all the consumer/gamer 3D PC accelerators released in 1996 and 1997. beaten 3DO/Matsushita M2 (even the M2 released in 1997). Such a Saturn could've been used as an awesome, low-end arcade board to complement and co-exist with the highend MODEL 3. Allowed for upgraded MODEL 2 games at home, and reasonable, painlessly-made conversions of MODEL 3 games with lower polygon counts.

A Saturn based around a PowerPC 603 CPU, a Lockheed Real3D/100 GPU and a reasonable amount of RAM+VRAM (16-24 MB) would've also allowed SEGA to go until 2000 or 2001 (even as late as 2002) before needing another new console. By that time Sega and its partners could've come up with a system that would be very significantly more powerful than Dreamcast,PS2. At *least* as powerful as Gamecube,Xbox, if not a bit more powerful and with more memory (at least 128 MB).

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=137697&postcount=62

(article originally from totalgames.net)