Dreamcast @ 1080p

I am trying to get my Dreamcast visuals to 1080p. I am currently using a pure VGA cable connected to my TV which has a dedicated VGA input, the quality is already very good. I actually prefer the cable over the VGA boxes as I find the image quality is slightly better after having compared it against two brands of VGA boxes I own.

To get to 1080p I was thinking of using a VGA to HDMI converter and connecting it to my Onkyo receiver as the Onkyo has the capability to upscale to 1080p via Marvell's Qdeo chip - it's actually capable of upscaling to 4K. I have already wasted my time on one of those cheap and cheerful VGA to HDMI converters and the image quality was terrible as well as not correctly scaling to 420p (I think it was trying to scale to 568x480). Also the Onkyo was unable to determine the input resolution from the converter so passed it directly through to the TV without any upscaling.

I am currently debating on whether to purchase another VGA to HDMI converter and let the Onkyo upscale or something more upmarket like the Atlona Technologies AT-HDVIEW (discontinued but you can still find them around) as was shown in Adam Koralik's YouTube video which also upscales to 720p and 1080p. Another option is to go for another upscaler such as the Etekcity® VGA Audio to HDMI, I have seen another YouTube video where they have reported it works fine. My third option is to use a VGA to component transcoder such as the Audio Authority 9A60A and let my Onkyo do the upscaling.

Does anyone have any recommendations or suggestions before a go blow my money on something please, preferably if anyone has gone from VGA to component. Is there much image quality/signal lose in doing VGA to component?

Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated...

Ted.

 

Hi Ted..
I've tinkered around this myself having used a VGA to component upscaler similar Adam Koralik's YouTube video. Video quality on most games looks very nice. Thing is...you are taking an analog image and converting it up to HD. Some DC games that have noticeable pixilation on their native output do not upscale well. The upscaling heightens the pixilation. Two games that I have played that I've noticed this with'; were Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure and Street Fighter Alpha 3, these games look better at 480P - IMHO.

The scaler that I was using only allowed switching between 720P and 1080P. I liked it, but was not content with the video quality of the aforementioned games, so I looked into other options for upscaling my DC systems and found something a little different that I am currently using and would recommend.

I am currently using a SCART to HDMI upscaler. I purchased SCART cables for my DC systems from ebay and bought the SCART to HDMI upscaler from Amazon.com (USA). I have been using it for about six months and I'm very happy with it. The upscaler supports both NTSC and PAL inputs. In all I have 5 consoles connected via SCART switch box - US, Japan, PAL Dreamcasts and two PS2 systems and they all look great on 50" Plasma.

Video output options:

800x600
1024x768
1250x1024
1080p
720p

I wish the scaler had the option for 480p or 640x480; that would be ideal for some of those DC games with noticeable pixelating; but at 800x600, they look good.

The scaler that I use is branded as Panlong (PAL/ NTSC SCART/ HDMI to HDMI Video Converter Box 720P 1080P Scaler with 3.5mm & Coaxial Audio Output for Game Consoles DVD STB). Available on Amazon.com USA. I had a look on Amazon Australia's website, but did not see any SCART to HDMI upscalers. As of this posting - the price is $54.99 US dollars.

 

Venatus Usque - your post was auto-moderated unfortunately. The moderation plugin seems to be a bit mean of late - usually it's only first posts with links! If you notice a post doesn't appear straight away, rest assured a moderator will get round to approving it for you! It shouldn't happen for too much longer!

 

I understand... thanks!

 

I would definitely advise against using a VGA to component convertor. Even ignoring the fact that VGA is superior to component (I've had a lot of people argue with me about that), there's also the fact that you're adding another conversion step into the process. If you use a VGA to component convertor with an HDTV, then you're converting the image from one analog format to another, and then converting that signal to a digital one. A VGA to HDMI convertor, on the other hand, only does ADC (analog to digital conversion) as well as scaling. You have to have an ADC in there somewhere, because modern TVs convert everything to digital before rendering the image. So a VGA to HDMI convertor ought to be the most direct conversion. I'm not sure what the best device would be for that. If your Onkyo receiver has a good scaler, then you could just get a cheap VGA to HDMI convertor and set it to output at 640x480 - then all it's doing is ADC, and the Onkyo does all of the scaling. I can't recommend an exact model, but there is probably a device that will do what I'm describing.

That's just what I would do if I were in your situation. I currently have my DC connected to a 22" CRT computer monitor, which displays the image at its native 640x480 resolution - no scaling or conversion necessary. It's beautiful. But if I ever find myself without a CRT, I might end up doing what you're trying to do.

 

I have a hanzo & I use this converter. (Only supports 31khz mode, also the hanzo powers the device so the USB cable isn't needed)

This outputs at 640x480 & your TV will upscale the image. (Since anything displayed on a 1080p screen is upscaled regardless of the input)

 

I think the idea is that the video should be at 1080p prior to reaching the television.

It's possible to do this with an xRGB Mini Framemeister by taking the VGA signal and using a sync combiner for H/V Sync and then running the new Csync signal with the RGB video lines to the RGB input on the xRGB and you get 480p input, which the xRGB Mini can then upscale to 1080p.

 

This completely depends on how good the television is at upscaling. Some TVs are better than others, but most TVs have no problem upscaling 480p content. It's 240p and 480i content that most televisions have issues with.

 

The device supports all main PC resolutions, but it's not an upscaler so it only outputs what the source tells it to.


I have a samsung 46" smart TV & it ups the video to 1080p (input is 640x480, what's displayed is scaled to the panel resolution, in my case 1080p) I also have it in PC Mode, so the dreamcast controls the RGB colours & it looks cracking.


Quality will also depend on the type of VGA adapter you have I have both the hanzo & the cable variant, I can tell you the hanzo looks f@#%!ng brilliant, the cable not so much. (The cable has what can only be described as, the Abrams lens flare effect on white surfaces)

 

As I've pointed out in other threads, Dreamcast is 720x480 not 640x480. Try the 240p test suite if you don't believe me, the circles on the linearity test will be squished if you scale to 640x480. Using VGA to component is one way of avoiding this but it's just finding an affordable transcoder.

Any Loss of picture quality going from RGB to YPBPR will be very, very minimal.

 

I have ordered an Atlona Technologies AT-HDVIEW which is a VGA to HDMI converter and upscaler, will see how good this is when it arrives.

Have you got any suggestions as to a decent VGA to component converter? I would like to try one of these too if I can find something reasonably...

Ted.

 

I've been looking for one myself but the decent quality ones like the TC1600 are quite expensive.

Remember upscalers introduce input lag, reading back over your original post it's like you're proposing to put the DC through two upscalers and then to your TV? That's going to be pretty unplayable I would have thought. If you have the budget for a higher end scaler I'd have gone with a DVDO Edge, only 6ms input lag and full picture zooming controls so you can adjust and make sure the aspect ratio is correct.

 

Why not just bypass the upscalers & let the tv do it, you won't be able to tell the difference & will save you a lot of dosh.

The only way your going to tell the difference is if you have two setup side by side.

I would say the only time you need a good scaler is if you're up scaling a scart input.

i use the device I linked to & have my TV set to PC mode for that input & its looks cracking super crisp & no noticeable lag input. (PC mode is required to get the 720x480 signal to display as 640x480 & the least input lag)

 

Depends on how much of a perfectionist you are I guess. I don't like how TVs squish the image down into 640x480, some would consider it nit picking I suppose but when you're running 4:3 content on a 16:9 display the last thing I want is more black space than there should be

 

only using some third-party vga box, built good, functions to the point. (and great image quality)
was wanting a direct solution to vga PROBLEM, it's too specific of a socket, and not required when Y.Pb.Pr. (component) is the mainstay of today.
the box i have really does perform well, but it's like half a dreamcast in size extra, NOT counting the cables used, nightmare.
...
a good alternative would be just DC to Y.Pb.Pr. all in one sitting, like the vga boxes, but smaller, and fewer cables.
can't fault vga, but not all quality TV's have that socket (you'll get off the hook though if there's a DVI socket and a gender-bender used)
...
considering going back to Y.U.V. (RGB) for the ease of it.
TV does well, but i need to scale back on the madness that is called boxes and cables. (TV adjusts picture to fit automatically regardless of signal pushed through it)
there's no requirement to shell out over the odds when the resources was in front of me the whole time...
[edit]
Y.Pb.Pr. CAN support HDMI signal on some screens, mine does...:smile-new:

 

I will only be getting it to upscale once through the Atlona Technologies AT-HDVIEW to 1080p - if it works! I could use the Atlona to scale and then get my receiver to do the upscaling but I'd rather pass through. The TV that I am connecting to is a Bravia KDL-52Z4500 and does no upscaling. It's a good TV and has a VGA input but it does not recognise the VGA input source as 720x480...

Ted.

 

Your tv is 1080p native, so anything under that resolution is upscaled by the TV, regardless if you want to or not, so your tv does upscale. The only resolution that is not scaled is 1080p, anything above is downscales to the panels native resolution ie, 1080p (1920x1080) anything below is upscaled.

Even if in the top right of the screen (or left) it says input 640x480 (that's what the input resolution is not the output, that's what your native panel resolution is ie, what you see. (1920x1080)


so basically you're not wanting to use the TV's scaler & upscale the DC to 1080p & then connect that input to your TV so you see 1080p at the top of the screen, instead of 640x480. (Even though anything displayed regardless of its resolution is 1080p)

 

No, my Bravia TV switches to the input resolution that is being received. My Onkyo receiver can scale and upscale an input resolution and then output it to my TV.

I received the Atlona Technologies AT-HDVIEW (VGA to HDMI) a couple of days ago, the same one reviewed by Adam Koralik in his YouTube review. I have mixed feelings about it... it's waaay better at scaling than the cheap scaler I purchased off eBay, colours are accurate, image isn't chopped off on one side and I have not noticed any signal quality loss plus this one can upscale if I need it to. However my Onkyo receiver looks better at doing the upscaling so I have set the AT-HDVIEW to scale only. I am happy because I can connect my Dreamcast via HDMI to either my TV or receiver (and allow the receiver to to do the upscaling) which, was the intended purpose - obviously. Having a TV with a VGA input built in and having now tried a decent HDMI scaler would I purchase it again? Yes and no! I'm not exactly sure what I was expecting once I got it, some games look really nice upscaled to 1080p and others I am happy with 640x480 which would mean using the analogue VGA would suffice. Some games like Last Hope like crap stretched out to 1080p but oddly look really good at 1080p/24 but this I think is mainly due to the blurring of the image it gives which kind of smooths out the stretched pixelation.

For anyone that has a TV or receiver with a VGA input and you are on a budget I would say VGA is still the all-round best option from my own personal experience. I recommend keeping with the single VGA cable without the VGA box as from personal experience every VGA box I have tried caused some interference or imperfection in image quality in comparison but that could be due to the brands of VGA boxes I have tried being of poor build quality. One benefit now is that I have future proofed myself a bit, if I get a new TV or receiver without VGA I can now scale the VGA 640x480 signal to HDMI and also upscale it to 1080p (or 1080p/24) for those games that look best at those resolutions.

I am still on the quest for the best Dreamcast visuals! I am next looking at VGA to component and waiting to take delivery of a VGA component cable. Hopefully either my TV or receiver accepts Dreamcast RGB via component which would mean that I don't need a separate converter. This will also allow me to have the Dreamcast input at 720x480 which will be great because I've noticed when using VGA to HDMI some games look like they are still slightly offset or cropped to suite 640x480...

Ted.

 

I give up, you clearly don't know how HD flat panel TV's work. (ie, LCD, Plasmas, AOLED eg...)

Anything displayed on your TV is upscaled to the panels native resolution, so that could be 1280x720 (720p) or 1920x1080 (1080p).

The input resolution is completely different from the output (input is what the TV receives, output is what you see on the screen with your eyes, this is upscaled to fit your screens horizontal & vertical, native resolution. (1080p display, 1920x1080)

Look at it this way, if your TV never upscaled the image you would have a tiny 640x480 box in the center of your screen. Basically if it fills your screen from left to right or top to bottom it's being scaled.

If you don't want to believe me, go look it up. (Really you should have done this in the first place)

Here is an example, of no scaling. (Or what you would see on your TV if it wasn't scaling the image)



The only time an external scaler is needed in my opinion now a days is when scaling anything under 480p. (TV's are getting very good at scaling, just not obsolete resolutions)

And the Hanzo is the best VGA box for the DC hands down. (I own one & it's cracking)

 

Question for darcagn, you say the DC outputs 720x640. Does it uses non-square pixels so that 720x640 becomes 4:3 or 16:9? Like DVDs do?