Is it me or are sprites on Dreamcast........

Yes the resolution in Vampire Chronicle for Maching service is dithered mostly to handle the poor bandwith of 56k but puzzle fighter for the most part looks great

AHhhhh Progear. Like everything cave does...........AWESOME.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCsqaAAPHaY

He has to suicide twice to get the rank down so the bullets go slow enough, but man... that's just beautiful.

 

Cave games are just so awesome. I'll never forget Guwange's Cat spider or for that matter any of the creepy as all fuck bosses from that game.

While we're talking about Cave Besides ESP Gladua what other Cave games are on PS2?

 

Fuck... hit back on my browser and lost a massive post. Oh, well... here:

http://www.gamengai.com/gm_inf.php?gm_id=1155
http://www.gamengai.com/gm_inf.php?gm_id=1154
http://www.gamengai.com/gm_inf.php?gm_id=1156

Long story short:
Dodonpachi DOJ & ESPGaluda done by Arika. No joke, perhaps the best ports to a console ever. Bonuses galore + near-perfect ports from completely different architecture.

Mushihime-sama & Ibara: Pretty ass ports. Filtered + interlaced display, no attempt to emulate slowdown (something found in all Cave games) and the arranged modes are pretty lame (although I've never tried Ibara's).

 

I will definatly be picking those up.

Anywho since we've gotten to talking about Shmups I'm starting to favor the Gamecube port of Ikaruga over the originial for Dreamcast. There's just something well better about it.

 

PCE is around 240 lines actually, no the top and the bottom aren't in the safe area (what's visible on most TVs) but they're still there and ME doesn't display them nor does it have an option for the correct aspect.

I have heard Mednafen has surpassed Magic Engine in accuracy. Since it's an open project, they'd probably be willing and able to implement AVGA support for you in no time.

Scanlines are considered how? By the art team? I don't think think any artists within the last 20 years since VGA came out have drawn on a 240p display and the programmers only deal with active video + h/vblank.

It's a *fact* that if it's not being displayed as 240p, it's not a 240p game, stop calling it that. You're confusing something that was developed for 240p output with a game that internally generates a 240 line frame @ 60hz.

It would be a "new port with multiple video modes, some of them lossy"...
I'm not arguing with your opinions, I agree with them, I'm just trying to correct some wrong notions of yours.

It's not always easy to tell a 480i game from a 480p game though, unless your display doesn't work with 480i/p.

If the game works on VGA monitors, it has a 480p mode. Whether the games take the shitty 480i conversion, deinterlace it and duplicate frames, I don't know, I just know that VGA monitors don't do interlaced video.

Right because 240p is *only* possible on 480i capable displays, 240p is a trick, TV's aren't designed with it in mind.

All games that support the VGA box do this by reading 2 hardwired pins in the video cable. (composite/RGB and RGBS/RGBHV pins)

The RGB part is probably to stop SCART users from importing games, but the VGA pin is there to translate the RGB levels to those appropriate for a VGA video monitor and output separate sync signals as well as alert the game to generate a 480 line frame and turn on progressive mode.

I do not think it's OK, I'm just asserting facts and suggesting educated guesses from a logic standpoint. I personally don't think software emulation is for preservation first as software emulators don't preserve hardware as much as they do games. Most emulator authors don't have any idea how the actual hardware works, not to mention that it's not worthwhile from a gaming standpoint to emulate obscure nuances because it kills performance. My emulation code is written to aid me in testing hardware emulation ideas, which is where I believe real preservation takes place. In HW emulation all things are considered and the aim is to make a 100% compatible design, not just something that will run on today's PCs.

 

I don't get this idea that "pixels" aren't always square, and that somehow this bothers the game. As far as I am aware, while the TV/Monitor may draw pixels in a fashion that is not perfectly square, the game hardware itself works in even units. So while something might appear streched or an odd aspect ratio, I don't see how that's going to affect the game or hit collision. Really it just doesn't make sense to me.

The only thing that makes sense is if they tried to resize sprites and fucked up their collision system while doing it.

As far as all this interlaced vs non-interlaced or progressive, we all know interlacing sucks ass. And I think most of us would agree it's stupid to interlace a game port when you don't have to do so. I'm pretty happy with my RGB monitor and older systems that don't output interlaced signals. I'd rather avoid things like Interlacing and low quality video signal standards like Composite/S-Video. Right now other than the NES, everything in here is hooked up via RGB, VGA, or Component Video. It really makes a difference in clarity that I appreciate.

About the bit about emulation, I agree that if you want to really preserve a system your goal shouldn't be to get games working but to properly mimic all the behaviors of the real hardware, in which case all the games will follow. Really I think everyone here has about the same opinions. You don't have to "correct" GP. We all know what he's saying, even if you think the way he says it is misleading or incorrect.

Can't we all just get along?

 

This is turning out to be an amazing thread.

One that never answered my Why does Garou Look better on PS2 than it does on Dreamcast question though.........

 

get old CRT tv
I have old CRT tv JVC 27 inch for Neogeo and old system _S-video
HDTV for dreamcast VGA xbox 360_VGA_ps3_HDMI-Wii_Component Cable

 

Pixels aren't always square because pixels change state on an edge of a pixel clock. The active part of a display line is a defined time (generally ~53uS); the guns sweep across the line at a steady rate to complete the line within that duration. The slower the pixel clock, the wider the pixels are on the screen because the pixels keep their state for longer and span across more horizontal dots in the screen's shadow mask.

It has nothing to do with gameplay collision (or the display), BTW very few systems ever detected object collision in hardware anyway. In previous posts when I say pixels off, I mean there are erroneous pixels displayed because of high level emulation techniques such as emulating a VDP with frame or line precision instead of it's true pixel precision or simulating hardware scaling.

It certainly does not suck ass, thanks to interlacing TV is bearable to watch. Of course 480p > 480i, but other than for old games, 480i > 240p. Most modern games wouldn't even be playable on a SD set without interlacing because 240 lines of resolution is just too small.

I didn't and still don't know all of what he was saying. Using proper terminology is important because wrong things WERE said, it's not my opinion.

Aren't we?

 

It's your TV and your cables, isn't it?

 

I'll let you know in a few time to break out the RCA Cables for PS2

Edit: Ok it took forever to set it up properly but same stage same characters and the characters in the sameplace, on the Same TV Both going through the RCA cables that came with the system.

Garou on Dreamcast- first thing I noticed it took longer to load and the text was harder to read. Finally I fight Jenet (took a few times) I nocied the details on the sprites were very hard to make out the text under the life bars were blurry as all hell as were the backgrounds.

Garou on PS2- while it still wasn't as nice as through component everything looked alot clearer the text was just BARELY better on PS2 but the details of the stages and chacters was much better in fact you'd be hard pressed to belive they were even the same game.

To make sure my findings were from an Unbiased source I showed my dad both images not saying which system was which (as he always leans towards sega as do I) He agreed and noted the characters looked the worst out of all the differences on Dreamcast.

 

According to this post we are both right. I can confirm that a number of games I have played result in the 8 lines on top & bottom in Magic Engine... same w/ ZSNES.

I will look it up and ask. Cheers for the tip. You'd be surprised to see how many developer simply do not care though... at least in my experience. The ZSnes developers were a bit prickish about it from a thread I read (in a "request custom resolutions here" thread of all places). It wound up going in though.

Why not? There are still companies putting out games in low res. Why would their artists not consider the display when creating the sprites. Cave *still* puts out games in 240p only. Their arcade department (their only successful games department) have never put out anything higher than 240p. That's not by accident. Their CEO said in an interview Arcadia (years ago) that they wouldn't be switching to 3D/high res anytime soon, if ever. They've not drawn games by hand in quite some time though. Nippon Ichi is another that has put out some straight to console PS2 games in 240p within the last couple of years.

Pointless to argue about semantics, but, I'll give you '240p-designed game'.

Indeed it is not. I was referring to 240p versus 480i.

I would agree, but then the debate starts as to "is the original display quality obscure". Some people frighteningly enough would say yes.

Pretty civil. Just think if this was Gamefaqs.

I can't give you a technical analysis like Calpis can, but generally there are no rules on how large a pixel has to be... or even one dimension has to be. If you read a question or two down in this interview translation you'll see where Joker Jun comments on the CPS2's oblong pixels and how they created some work. I've translated a lot of Cave interviews (all I could find). They are pretty much the last old school game developer around, and it's great to pick their brains...even though all the interviews are pretty dated by now.

But in this one case (someone tell me the name of the game?) tweaking the display clearly affected Gameplay. Nobody really knows why, but have theorized.

OKay, stop. You're taking things way too literally. Nobody is saying interlacing in general is bad. In theory, communism works. It's the way it's applied. Applying 480i to a 2D game that was originally 240p is what sucks ass. We all know interlacing for 3D works. This whole thread is about low res sprites though, and nothing else.

I could use their newly coined expressions "fake low res", "true low res", and "true high res" but as a developer I doubt you would like them. Before you shoot them down, remember that once a community (even a small one) starts using a word, it's pretty much a word... regardless of who's panties get bunched up. I personally hate the word 'shmup', but have to live with it.

My main issue w/ the GC port is there's basically no reason to have an arcade stick on the Gamecub. There's like what, 1 fighting game and 2 shooters? That alone is reason enough for me to not even bother. GC boxes suck, and the DC cover art is better are the nails in the coffin.

You need one of these:
http://page5.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e69329198

Unfortunatly, manner other people think they do too!

 

But this is still on the HDTV isn't it? Cus seriously, try sticking the PS2 and DC on S video on a good CRT SD TV, stuff won't be blurry and all that. My TV is the same way.

 

Through component My PS2 is Beautiful. If I could somehow Get my Dreamcast going through component I'm sure it'll look fine. Part of me thinks it's just that SNK Half assed it.

Although it does feel good telling Sega fan boys living in the past their precious dreamcast can't do 2d that well............

.....even if Guilty Gear X gets me to STFU.

I dunno ever since I got my 2nd Dreamcast I just don't love the old DC as much as I used to. There are still awesome games and shit on it but like something about it lost it's luster maybe becuase it's a pain to get the imports to work or that I have a feeling the disc drive is dying. OR XBOX, and Gamecube were just so good they surpassed Dreamcast in a few ways.

Dunno that's another thread.

 

Calpis, I just meant interlacing sucks when applied to something not intended for it. Obviously interlacing and composite video make Television and VHS tapes and such nice. Interlacing also like you said make 480 resolutions for 3D gaming on normal TVs possible. Obviously interlacing has uses. ;O

GP, I'm not sure exactly what you were pointing out. The AV Famicom? I definitely want one. Though ideally I'd want an RGB modded Famicom which would probably need to take the PPU out of the Sharp Titler unit. And if I had the kind of money to buy a Titler I think I'd rather buy a PS3 and a game!

 

The artists would consider things like the resolution, tile sizes, palette, layers, etc etc but in the end the final rendered frame is scanlineless. Unless you get right on top the display you shouldn't see them.

Applying 480i to a game designed for 240p wasn't said though Something said literally deserves a literal answer.

Fake low res is 240 line game in 480i?
True low is 240 line in 240p?
True high is 480i or 480p?

What do you call what that guy was doing playing 240 line games in 480i scaled to 240p?

Me too but I still say vertical/horizontal/whatever shooter since they all feel like different genres.

That *is* a RGB modified AV Famicom

 

If you can solder: http://elm-chan.org/works/yuv2rgb/rgb2yuv.png

480p will be a little more complicated depending on what exactly the DC outputs in VGA mode, I don't have a component TV to try stuff out.

 

Right but tweaks are made through the countless test phases. Joker Jun even complained about a stage in ESPRade being too dark. The developer thought it was too bright. I can't help but think they were butting heads in the testing phase, looking at a near final product (w/ scanlines) when this happened.

If you missed it, you jumped in way, way late. My initial post clearly stated the issues of low res sprites being displayed in interlaced or high resolution.

Yep. 480p is kind of a given. I guess there's fake high res which is the worst of any of them. 240p in 480p.

A mess. He swears by it though. I personally don't have enough offending titles to bother with it. I own the PCBs of the two poor Cave PS2 ports and I'm not a fan of 2D fighting really.

Yep. They don't come around too often either.

 

GodofHarcore, even though both are using Composite video, the systems arent equal in output quality. I cant speak for the differences between those systems, but with Component output on the 360 vs PS3, the 360 blows away the PS3 in overall quality.