Proper dump of Crime Patrol for the Sega Saturn

Aloha

It came to my attention, from my friend Don Russell, that the disc for Crime Patrol was sold via an ebay auction, but the buyer wanted to pay out $100 a month until the amount was paid off. On top of that, the buyer wanted access to the dump i created.

This concerned me on several levels, so I made a copy of the image and in the copy i inserted 3 files, intending to have a way to track this image to see what happened.

I then verified that the new image worked in an emulator, packaged up the newly created image (which had its sub-channel data stripped out) in to a 7z file with an NFO file, a Dumped by file, and a couple of other identifying files, and uploaded it to my server in a sub-folder for Don.

Don provided that link to the buyer.

Today, i searched for my file and a thread here popped up. I downloaded the file that was offered. None of the credit files i placed with the original 7z file were there, except Crime Patrol.TXT, which had been altered. All of the dump information was removed, as was the note Don wanted included with the game's release. You can see a similar version of this text in our release of "Armed".

All this happened in the course of 2 days.

I knew something like this was up, so I wanted to make sure you are all aware that this was not intended to be a public release. A proper release, without my files injected into the image, and with all the appropriate sub-channel data, will be released shortly, but i wanted to call out the person who did this.

Shame on you, sir.

Below, please note my proof:

Disc images i've dumped



Crime Patrol as it was to be released:



An unedited version of the Crime Patrol.TXT File:


And finally, a comparison of both the altered disc image vs the unaltered disc image, highlighting the file names and dates:

 

Nice way of putting you in the "true" light!

Before writing all the stuff i wrote in our private conversation (along with Staff Member Johnny) i will let the original owner (from whom i bought this game) take over:

-name removed- (A Murder of the Crows) only backed up and preserved it. To be safe in case if the disc goes bad. Sega Saturn discs are prone to have disc rots.
I am the one who found these and bought them in 2009.

All I agreed and asked him to do was to back them up preserve them. Thats all. Then later I learned that he wanted to release them and get credit for doing this etc But I was the one who found them and bought them. I am the owner of all these discs. Same goes for Armed and Bedlam for Sega Saturn too. I traded my Armed and Bedlam for Delisoba Deluxe and Eyeful Home. These are on eBay too.

Yes I am the one who found them and bought these from the sister of the Former Sega of America quality assurance guy.

And no -name removed- (AMOC) never paid me anything at all. So I am the owner of these.

So please just stop telling the guys here that you are the true fighter for the rights and i am the bad guy.
Your massive amount of text files were re-added to the download file, that´s all i am willing to do (although i don´t really care).
But to be clear:
- I bought this game from the original owner
- Noone including you has to decide or judge anything related to our agreement how the payment is/will be done
- Stop your witch-hunt immediately - i am not willing to let you talk this way to me or anyone who is willing to pay a lot of money for unreleased games and then giving them away for free while releasing backup dumps without the right to do so!
- As i downloaded the ISO file i had no clue, that it was done by you or that Don wanted his credit to be in there too (i just bought an unreleased game where the games´ data was backed up IF something goes wroing with the original disc - no one mentioned that you want to release the games´ data right after selling, otherwise i would not have paid such an amount of money!). Right after the start of this discussion i re-added all the files you´ve added to the file, because i understand your point here, but nothing else you say

 

I would really like to hear other thoughts from long-time users to know how to handle such situations in the future (for sure i will never again buy an unreleased game when the games´ data was already given to someone else - that is a consequence of this).
I nearly agree that it was wrong to delete those files from the disc image, although i don´t see a sense in adding extra credit files in a disc originally owned by ALG and/or SEGA (and i immediately re-added those files after this whole discussion started).

But everything else i can´t understand.

I just bought this game from a seller on ebay with an agreement including the rates payment and including the delivery of an ISO prior to the end of payment. The seller agreed and trusts me and so i pay the full amount to him and am using the ISO file he delivered to me, which he got from AMOC.

So what´s the point now?
Blaming me forever because of those f+++king credit notes from AMOC?
Being blamed by Staff Members, which really doesn´t heard my arguments and instead are going 100% with a member which is longer here than i am?

 

I apologize to the community for the continued public display here. @Johnny, @Mr. Saturn , and I are still in a private conversation about this issue, and the communication between @Mr. Saturn and I has broken down, so I will be awaiting @Johnny's thoughts and responses. In the meantime, know that the image Mr. Saturn provided a link to has been altered to establish proof of origin and to track what happens with the file, and that an unaltered image exists.

 

Personal opinion:
Images shouldnt be altered without a prior agreement.

If you buy a game, you are free to do with it what you want, be it to "hoard" it, share it, delete it and destroy the original, it's yours.

I find the whole thing of selling a game then having someone else who doesn't own the game any longer uploading the game to be silly, which may have happened with the other sale. This of course being if an agreement wasnt made prior to purchase, which is something Ive done (given discounts with the understanding that a game be release down the line)

What you have done in releasing the game for free, after purchasing it, is commendable. I wouldn't, however, have released it until after the purchase was 100% complete

 

Thanks Borman for your thoughts without any attacks on my person like others do.

If the purchase is complete or not is a thing between me and the seller and doesn´t have to bother anyone.
If AMOC wouldn´t have told it, you all would have assumed that i already paid completely for it, so all the arguments regarding the payment method have nothing to do with the whole discussion.

Correct?

 

That all is between you and the buyer, I can only say what I would have set out. But I also wouldnt have sent anything until I got full payment so that's just me. I can only say what I would do.

 

Wow. So you are the victim here? Let me guess, i'm the evil staff member then? Because i saw consistency on proving the issue from a member that registered one month before you.

I, personally, totally disagree with this.

You agreed to purchase an ISO file of an unreleased game and after paying 10% of the price, downloaded the file, altered it to the point of removing all traces crediting the people who originally preserved and released it as your own work.

And even after everything was said and proved, you sound angry of the fact that someone noticed and doesn't seem to have any regrets of what you did?

Honestly, i'll elevate this case for all other mods to make a decision.

 

Hi’ ya all! This is me aka Don Xavier Russell. I am the owner of these discs.

I found a craigslist ad that said Sega Saturn with 100 games for sale. So I replied to that ad in September 2009. Met with that lady in her garage. Saw those stuff and immediately bought them there right on the spot. It turned out that her brother worked as a Quality Assurance guy at Sega of America.

Yes I have found and bought so many prototypes throughout the years including over 65 GameBoy prototypes and over 32 Super Nintendo prototypes etc.

At PRGE 2015 my brother brought those Sega Saturn prototypes/Betas/Silvers without me knowing. And he sold them to a guy behind my back. I got very pissed off! And was very UPSET at my brother for doing this. But luckily enough I was able to get them back from the buyer.

The buyer left the discs with Frank C a good friend of mine. His screenname is TheRedEye and owner of lost levels website. He dumped those discs in 2015. For preservation and history purposes. In case if any discs went bad. Sega Saturn discs r prone to get discrots . He was unable to dump 4-5 discs (Virtual Hydlide and few others.

Anyways then Ke Kona aka A Murder of the Crows another good friend of mine too. Who is very passionate about Sega Saturn! He asked me to let him to do proper dumps/archiving/preserving those discs using Redump tools. So I let him preserve/archive them. So data is aaved in case if any discs went bad. And he wanted to release them on his website. So everyone can play and enjoy them. Rather than me being selfish and hoard them. And not sharing with the public.

Unfortunately I have severe health issues.
Diabetes
Kidney dialysis
High Cholestrol
High Blood Pressure
Charcot in left foot making it difficult for me to walk
Impaired vision almost blind by diabetes.

And our 1948 house bathroom needs repairs/remodel/renovations. So I have decided it is the time to sell the discs to help with those cost.

So I posted some discs on eBay. Mr. Saturn offered me $1,000 for Crime Patrol. I accepted his offer. But he wanted to pay me $100 a month. I was okay with that. Then he messaged me after sending me the $100 payment. He wanted an ISO image uploaded so he can get it. And get the actual disc from me after he pays the balance in full. Sofar only got $100 from him. I know that was a big mistake of mine and very stupid of me. Because he has the image so who knows if he will pay the rest or not? And he removed the credits or the story about me finding the discs etc. so at this point I feel it is best to just refund him his $100. And sell the disc to someone else??? But of course the value of this disc will be down . So I need your help and opinions on this situation.

I have not read everything in this thread yet. But I will when I have the time to do.

I just do not want any problems or issues here or there at all. I want everyone to be happy and do the right thing.

Yes I was the original owner of that Armed and Bedlam prototype discs for the Sega Saturn. I traded these to Drew Kearns for his Delisoba Deluxe and Eyeful Home along with some other games from him. And Drew sold Armed for $2,500 on eBay. He traded that Bedlam for MACS for Super Nintendo.

Sorry for my long post. And sorry if my grammar sucks. It is because I am Deaf! Lol

So let me know what should I do? Refund him the $100 and sell the disc to someone else. Or see if he will pay the rest and give the proper credits? Let me know your opinions thank you all the gamers! And keep on Gaming On!

Many gamers personally knows me such as DreamTR and many others!!!! I have seen some familiar names here on this website!

 

I would say just read my post. Realize that if Murder of Crows is going to be releasing everything for free online, that it needs to be said to the person buying it up front.

Just realize that we can only do so much, even less so when the sale was conducted off site. Work out the terms of the purchase amongst yourselves, ideally before buying something, and stop modifying prototypes.

And find that Xbox

 

First, sorry to hear about your health issues. Wish you the best.

And thank you for taking the time to shed some light on this whole situation. It ultimately helps understand what happened.

As for what to do now, it's up to you. I really can't tell you what to do next, but like i said before, the decent thing to do is for Mr. Saturn to complete the payments he agreed on and at the very least, issue an open apology to you.

Still, i elevated this issue to all other moderators, since i was considered "biased" from one of the parts.

 

Sorry about your health issues.

Concerning the sale... well, I presume sending the iso before was a great leap of faith. In any case at least it was a known user and in this forum.

In my opinion, no release should be done until the full amount is paied.

The buyer intentions were good and honesty too I'm sure it's there.

Keep us updated on the payment. In sure the release can wait a bit so that things resolves and any suspect or bitterness will be gone.

 

First, you don´t have to hope that the proper credits will be given as i (already said 100 times) re-added all the credit files after hearing that someone (AMOC in the first) was upset with my deletion.

Second, i am well known internet-wide with my SEGA Network and first for sure in the german-speaking internet and usual world outside as a very handsome and honest person, so i am really pissed off, that some guys not integrated in this agreement say things about if i will pay or not! I already paid hundreds of dollars for Major Damage and Chelnov and released them for free (is this a behavior a cheater shows?)

I bought an unreleased game from you for 1.000$ and already (prior to this whole discussion) offered you to pay 200$/month that we are finished earlier. But you never told me at the time we agreed, that you gave the game away to AMOC and talked with him, that he might release the games´ data (ISO) after you sold the disc. This is not a very honest way of dealing. I am not a collector who wants to keep such holy grails in his collection and be the happiest guy then as nobody else has this opportunity. (such persons would be really pissed of with such a deal - paying a lot of money for a unique game and then seeing someone else releasing its data online).

I give away this game for all for free and paid 1.000$ at the end.
So all i ask is that i am not attacked by anyone who just made up an ISO from a game he holds no rights on.

You agreed to the rate payment.
You agreed to send me the ISO prior to the end of payment.
You gave AMOC the mandate to backup the disc IF the disc get lost or damaged, no word of that he will upload the files afterwards.

Finally, the download archive has all the credit files in it, which AMOC added when setting up the ISO.
I will pay the rest of the amount as we both agreed.

So i doesn´t want to be blamed here, i just want to find and release as much unreleased Saturn games as possible without hunting for praise and am willing to pay a fair amount of money for these games, as long as i am not being attacked afterwards and as long as this game really wasn´t released yet and will not be released days after i bought it!

Thank you.

 

And just to show you and any other one here thinking bad of me or having the fear that i will not pay, although i was not treated honestly, i just sent you the next 200$ earlier than we agreed! You may post the reception of the money here.

 

Hey there Mr. Saturn thanks for posting your reply. I was not trying to attack you at all. My apologizes if it sounded like I was trying to attack you.

UPDATE fir all of you he has paid me $200. Just few minutes ago so total paid by him has been $300. So he is good and honest guy!

No need for ugly discussions here. Keep it ckean and healthy talk and discussions here.

I wanted to add this yes I know I should have added the information to my sales on ebay for those items that they have been dumped archived preserved by lost levels and AMOC. I will add those to my current Saturn discs items on eBay. So that way it can be clear. And proper credits to be given too.

Top of all that Mr . Saturn is a good and cool guy please do not attack him Thank You.

 

No one stated you are not going to keep up your word/debt. What was stated is just that the deal was based on a great amount of trust and good faith. Never doubted you would not keep to it.

I also stated how generous it is from you, but just added that it may be for the best to wait for the release.

It's not a REQUEST, it's a suggestion. The sale wasn't even made here. This is a kind of new unprecendented issue.

Maybe it shouldn't even be brought up here! Still it's out and we are trying to close it in the best reasonable way so no part will get offended or feel burnt.

WHAT FOLLOWS HERE IS ALL MY OWN VIEW.

Let's say you could post some screens/review/video of the game before releasing it, and do so after the payiment is done. That way people will get to appreciate your generousity more by knowing what they'll get and get their appetite wettted.

LAst word from me, i think the two of you can come out with a joint readme for the release. Crdits are due to both the one that brought out of the dust the game and the generous one that chose to release for al to enjoy.

Let's make something costructive ot of this unpleasant situation.

No one had got hurt so far, things could have been better handled but there's really no big clash or unrepairable issue so far.

 

From my point, the issue is cleared.
I will not do any of the demands AMOC wanted from me just because he set up the backup ISO:

I will not take down the game from my site.
I will not link to AMOC´s server.
I will not credit him or Xavier on my website or anywhere else, because all credits are in the download file.
I will not do apologize to him or Xavier.
I don´t need a joint readme or credit, as the short thank you notes in the boards are pleasant enough for me and i just do this for my favourite gaming system and not for the fame.

I will only pay the rest 700$ in the next 3 months and that´s it.
Feel free to download the game from my website and have fun playing it.
I will still search for unreleased games and give them to you all for free!

Maybe someday Steve Woita will send me the Waterworld game finally...i already did a lot of work for it in the last few years including legal checks with Universal and Atari/Ocean.
And if you have unreleased games, you can offer me them and i will pay a fair prize (you may give them to me by no costs for sure too) regarding how complete it is (preconditioned that no one else has access to the games´ data)

And just a short thank you to Xavier for trusting me and doing all this.

It is now a decision of the Staff Members here, if they re-open the original thread and deleting the order that i have to apologize to the original disc owner!

 

I'm surprised that @Mr. Saturn doesn't get more support on this one. For those TL;DR'ing;

- @Mr. Saturn buys unreleased game "Crime Patrol" for $1000,- with a payment plan of $100,- per month.
- Seller made no mention at all that it was his intention to release the data on the WWW once the item was successfully sold
- Buyer/seller agree that buyer gets an ISO of the game after the first installment and will get the original disc once he paid in full.
- Buyers gets an modified ISO of the bought game, the modification includes a few injected files
- Buyer removes injected data, and releases the game in it's original form
- Buyer gets backlash for not keeping injected data in the image, nor giving credit to the person who made the dump of the disc where he paid a 1000 bucks for

Both @Mr. Saturn and the seller had the same end game, preserving game history. It's admirable and highly generous of @Mr. Saturn to be willing to spend a $1000,- in order for SEGA Saturn players around the globe to play an unreleased game and to preserve it's history.

All of this could have been avoided if the seller made his intentions clear from the start in the advertisement. Luckily thanks to the Crime Patrol, he has since changed his advertisements and made mentioning of this.

 

So, here's my thoughts:

1. I had my doubts about Mr. Saturn and the requests he was making of my friend. Seemed shady to ask for an image up front before payment was completed, and it could devalue the disc. Mr Saturn could have taken the image and stopped payment for the disc.
   
2. I provided an altered image to see what would happen. I included the appropriate credit files, including credit for Don, Myself, F1ReB4LL and redump.org. I also informed the person who reads the files that the image was altered.
   
3. The file i provided was opened and extracted. The files that were in there were removed or altered in an attempt to remove credits that were due. The Image and the remaining altered file were packaged back up and offered on Mr. Saturn's website.
4. At no point has Mr. Saturn shown remorse for the removal of the files, but instead seemed like he's entitled to the image. He doesn't own the disc yet, he didn't do the dump, and he has no legitimate claim of ownership: Layaway does not entitle the person to ownership rights.
   
5. I've never asked for an apology. I did ask that the file i provided remained 100% untouched if he was going to offer the file for download, and that appropriate credit be given for the making of the image on his site. I've suggested that he link to the original file provided to him. I've also informed him that upon completion of the sale, the unaltered image would be given to him.
6. It has been implied that if i hadn't called Mr. Saturn out on his actions, no one would have known that he hadn't finished paying for the disc. I counter with this: If I hadn't altered the image, i would have had no proof that Mr. Saturn was trying to claim the image as his own. I could not have proven that he altered the readme files included with the image. Essentially, I would not have been able to prove what he did. So, a more correct statement would have been "If he hadn't caught me changing the readme files and if he couldn't have proven it, no one would have known i did it."
   
7. I was given a very strong impression that if Mr. Saturn did NOT receive the image, he would stop the transaction. Don needs the money for his medical bills and was afraid of a negative feedback.

An image was provided that works even if altered, as a leap of faith. Mr. Saturn's actions with the provided file broke the trust I would have had for him when dealing with my friend. Don is far more forgiving than I am. In my mind, the actions taken by Mr. Saturn show he's willing to alter or obscure facts to suit his own purposes, which to me includes the possibility of leaking an image of a disc he has on layaway before he's finished paying it off, potentially stopping the payment after that. It doesn't mean he will, but it seems obvious to me that he cared little about the contents of the image and more about taking the credit for the image to promote his own site/agenda.

It seems to me that Mr. Saturn intends to keep his promise to Don and will continue to pay for the disc.

Since the altered image is going to continue to be offered online for free, I feel it is in the best interest of the community to provide the actual unaltered image (including sub-channel data), also for free. The goal here is to ensure that the people get the image, right? Might as well make sure the best image gets out there.

 

Just a couple of points:

- Layawayer did NOT remove the injected data. He removed the dumped_by file and the NFO file that was included in the original 7z file. He then took the remaining Crime Patrol.TXT file and ALTERED THE CONTENTS TO REMOVE ANY CREDIT TO ANYONE ELSE BUT HIMSELF, AND REMOVED ALL THE REFERENCES TO THE FACT THAT THE IMAGE WAS ALTERED/INACCURATE AND WAS MISSING SUB-CHANNEL DATA! This was supposed to be his queue to ask questions about the image: what was changed? why? Instead, he stripped information out, packaged the image back up with only his modified version of the Crime Patrol.TXT file (which, by the way, has purposeful errors in it, such as the fact that the mentioned cue file is missing).

- The intended purpose of the image was to ensure the game was preserved. Upon sale, the image would have been provided to the buyer if requested, with the only requirement being that the file provided remains intact, with all credit. They could choose to use it or not. If not, they could make their own. If an image was provided to the pubic for free, the newly created image would be compared to the image i made for accuracy. If the 2 images did not match, the creator of the new image would be informed and again the image would be offered up. If declined, the original image would be released to redump to prevent an inaccurate image from being spread into that collection. Either way, there is no intent to provide the image to the public prior to the sale, and if the buyer decides they do not want to release it to the public, the image stays out of the public's hands until that changes.

- As don stated clearly to me in a message this evening, the auction is for the disc only. No other rights to data or previously made images are transferred to a buyer. The purchase of the disc is considered the paywall to access the image.

- I'd rather give all of the images away to the public completely free, but my friend has medical bills to pay and I simply can't afford to buy them all to do that.

When this is all settled, i think it might be worthwhile to let people see the messages between Mr. Saturn, Johnny, and myself....if we really want all the drama to continue. I'm not so interested in that. This is about catching someone doing an unethical thing: removing the credit from the file that was provided, altering the information in one of those files, and offering it out to the public as if it was his own, all before actually being the owner of the disc.