Sega Saturn Copy Protection. Break it get $800

Assuming the outside ring actually has something to do with the security of the discs, what about that Yamaha CD-writer that was released a few years back, the one that could actually burn images into the unused portion of a CD? It would be a long shot, but I wonder if anyone has tried that?

Another most likely far-fetched idea - what if the outside ring with the Sega logo is really some sort of steganographic code, i.e. there's data readable by the Saturn burnt into it identifying the game, region, etc?

 

DiscT@2

The Yamaha F1 family, I have an external (USB2/FireWire) one.
The problem is it doesn't burn to a geographically unused portion of the disc, it just writes empty data to unused areas of the dye in whatever pattern you like.
Not useful in this instance.
~Krelian

 

I've got a few Saturn CDs in front of me, just so we're clear, everyone believes the security ring is the ultra low density track about a half a centimeter wide that says 'TRADEMARK "SEGA"' and "PRODUCED BY or UNDER LICENSE FROM SEGA ENTERPRISES, LTD."? I'm not sure if T@2 could replicate that, there might be TOO much space between the bumps ("pits" aluminum side.) The "FINAL", "MIRAGE" thing in Ricky's pics I'm a little confused about, what is the significance of that and was that burned with a special burner or Yamaha or what?

 

Looking at the software available for T@2, you definately couldn't do it. What you'd need is a burner that can burn literally a raw image bit for bit (doesn't exist I don't think), you'd have to manually pad your CD to reach the security ring and then burn a pseudo-security ring made from data. I don't think it's possible to do such a thing, perhaps it's possible if you treat the area as ADPCM but CDROMs get confused by stuff like this, you can't just randomly put a "1" wherever you like and keep the rest of the CD blank.

 

Thats actually wrong prssed cds have an estimated shelf life of 25 years CDRW have a shelf life of 25 years where CDR range from 75-200 years.

( By some estimates, pressed CD-ROMs may only last for 10 to 25 years, because the aluminum reflective layer starts to corrode after a while.)

Read http://www.lib.demokritos.gr/InTheNews/CDlongevity.htm

Read this http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-5

Anyway as for the saturn cd protection if someone could figure out how to edit a Firmware to write the security ring lead out then that could also work.

 

Your claim is based on manufacturer estimations that the article is clearly calling speculations, the article even says that users estimate 10-25. The article also states that an unrecorded CD-R lasts 10-15... What makes a recorded CD-R last 75-200, thats BS.

Even so, the article doesn't claim to be scientific and it's all mere speculation. Anyways, why would a pressed disc's aluminum layer deteriorate opposed to a CD-R? It's the same material. Yes the dye will last longer than the aluminum but even so, A) backups ARE lossy, 100% of the time with CDDA, 100% of the time with data, luckily user data can be fixed. Pressed media is always lossless. The only sure way to archive data is to do so digitally.

 

Also should mention that I HAVE a few nearly 20 year old CDs and they're absolutely fine while some 8 year old CD-R are clearly not, they've been stored in the same conditions for the past 7 years.

 

Well it says estimates but the fact is pressed cds dont last as long its a fact im afraid. Good quality burnt CDRS will last longer. Also if you think about it the reason unwritten cdrs have a shelf life of 5 - 10 years is like anything else the dye has a shelf life / use by date if it isnt burnt it will not react properly when burnt with a writer. Once burnt it doesnt have to react anymore it just stays the way it is in a sold state.

As for your CDRS you obviously bought some pretty rubishy cdrs probably CMC manufactured as i have some CDRS that are are nearly 10 years old and still going burnt on my old 2x writer i have used Kprobe and NeroCD-DVD speed and C2 and C1 errors are still low after all this time. If you dont know what C2 and C1 errors are then you obiously dont have enough information to pass judgement on such matters.

 

They're OEM Taiyo Yuden, what I've always been told was the best. Yes I know what C1 and 2 errors are and I understand CIRC. I have spent many hours fixing data disc errors, sometimes manually, against ECC. I haven't checked my discs with KProbe or anything but it's very clear that the CD-Rs are peeling around the circumference.

 

And btw, the magic Yamaha burner has been mentioned so often on SegaXtreme that you'll get skinned alive for suggesting it (apparently it does not work).
Has anyone actually tried hooking up a logic analyser of some sorts to the laser's output wire during the security ring check, or maybe further down the CD-to-ASIC line? That would at least provide some insight into how the Saturn sees the data.

 

hmm....,may be hack it....

 

That's what I suggested, eavesdropping on the CDROM. Sadly though, you'd have to know what each of those lines does and what the Saturn does with what information It might be faster to just reverse engineer the modchip if you know what the pins are.

 

get the ring info very easy.
1. use any one game, cut 3.5" fit 3.5" cd-r, well some people don't know how to cut., ok, use name card size CD-R , it may little bit easy to cutting.
2. make a big toc size on 3.5" CD-R,(1GB or up to you)
3, use cd rip software by laser raw rip copy.
4, he he he....the code done on you hdd.


the code ready get, so it not hard burn back to CDR , in case lazy work on T@2 or no Yamaha F1 burn data on the disc is close section,
can work on hand menu , but need do swap,or what ever some special action burn the ring raw data
good luck~

 

This is, as Kyuusaku said, all speculation. No normal person has had any CD-Rs for longer than 10 years, so there's no proven fact that CD-Rs are going to last 50 years+ - it's all estimation, which is not always correct. Some Dutch magazine did a test on a load of 2-year-old CD-Rs - here (original article here - I saw it translated in more detail somewhere else but can't remember). The results were pretty awful.

I doubt all pressed CDs are gonna die after 25 years - I know there's been rumours that some very early (early 80's) CDs have started to get "laser rot" (common with early/badly made LserDiscs), but you do have to remember optical discs were still pretty new technology back then. God knows how much CD manufacturing has improved since 1982.

 

Erm, CDs have been around since 1982. Well, commercially anyway.

 

What kind of person would have the skill to reverse engineer a mod chip and what tools would be required.

 

Hmm, I really need to book up on my IC and electronics knowledge.

I have a few cd's from 1982, and they are in mint shape. I have some old cd-rs, cerca 1995/6, which I think still work.


^_^_^

 

Hmm, where to start....

Antipasta, a unit that emulates the CD drive? Umm, that's called the Mirage Also, yeah the pinout for the cart port is known. Well, I believe I have it, at least!

Hi-Ricky - whilst this is an interesting point you bring up, I have something that might disprove (or prove) it. I have to read through it properly though. A document from Sega which you had to fill in in order to submit your games to them for publication. They had to be written on approved media, with an approved burner. Don't forget though - developers had to use the system disc to boot their CD-Rs, so I doubt whether this is possible.

I also have some documentation with some source code which was supposed to be put on the disc. Perhaps this is the code from the outer edge. Will I give it to anyone? No. Why? Because I too believe that it is a bad idea. What do they hope to achieve from this? Can they not already copy their CDs? Yes they can, it is easy. Can they not already play copies? Yes, they can chip, use the swap method, or use a system disc. Will all Saturn games stop working if they don't crack this? NO. You will still be able to copy and play them as you have for the past 8 years or so.

*EDIT*

OMG! I just went over to that board. Those people are annoying me even more than the idiots ad cdfreaks did with their n00bish ideas. No wonder noone's ever done it!