To learn or to keep hidden...

Maybe a compromise should be struck (of course, on a per-collector basis).

At the very least, ROMs should be privately dumped and optical media privately ripped if at all possible (which a lot of people, admittedly, already do). At some point in the future, when the original media has degraded beyond use, distribute the images. I mean, at that point, the original doesn't really mean shit anymore, and the owner has gotten a good large amount of exclusivity.

What pisses me off are people that try to sell protos with strings attached - I saw one guy who sold two different protos on eBay, and he basically said that, to buy the proto, you had to sign a written contract not to extract, reverse engineer, distribute, or copy the contents of the prototype. I mean, what the fuck? Who the fuck has the right to tell me what I can do with a prototype after I've purchased it?

 

sign it its not like he can take you to court over some stolen game.....

 

I know that, but it's just the sheer hubris of some people. I mean, it's fine and all to keep what you buy to yourself, but to even try to prevent future owners from dumping a cart is just sheer arrogance.

 

I have had a job since I was 9, started doing paper rounds then washing dishes at restautants/pubs, cleaning toilets, bar work, bar management, call centre work, office work, computer maintenance.

There is always a job you can do, it's up to you to get off your arse and do something about it. You might not like the job or the wages, but it's there.

I partly agree, but if it's the pnly way to get hold of something like that, you have 2 choices:

Agree and have the item

Don't agree and never have the item

I have stuff I can't dump as I promised the original owner, big deal, so it's mine and mine alone. If I don't tell everyone, nobody will know it exists. As mentioned with the RE 1.5 thing, if you don't tell people you have it, they won't harass you for a copy.

 

I'm not really into the Dev. or Prototype/Unreleased side of things. Don't get me wrong, I think the stuff is interesting. However, as far as collecting goes, I'm more of a Rare, Obscure, S.E., and L.E. type of guy. I think in the long run, the only Unreleased/Proto item I would ever go after would be the M2, but that's because I love the 3DO.

Ok, now that I have said that I can get on with my post. I've been working since I was 15 years old. I've done a lot of stuff, in most cases it was hard labor. I saved most of my money so I could help pay for the costs of college, so that burden wouldn't be on my parents. Well here I am. I'm attending the university of my choice because of my hard work and dedication. I had my eye set on a goal, and I wasn't about to let it slip from my view. So now, I'm going to get an education so when I do get out into the workforce, I will be able to support myself. Now I have a new goal, but the amount of work I put into it will be no less. In fact, I may work harder than I ever have. Not physically, but mentally. There are many things I would like to buy, but I know if I just wait and if I am smart with my money and time now, I will be able to get all those things I want later.

The thing here is that those games are unreleased. You have no right to them whatsoever. Just because someone else obtained them doesn't mean you should have free access to them. What did you do to contribute to, not only finding the item, but purchasing it. Large sums of money go into this stuff, so people are not going to be willing to just hand stuff out. You have to work for what you want.


----------

Assembler, that's a nice monitor! How much that set you back?

 

It says free? As in, for free?!

 

Dude, it's a joke.

 

I know, hehe :-(

 

Well, Jim's point is that by distributing the contents around the world, you have ensured 100% that those contents would never be lost due to bitrot, unfortunate accidents (such as a house fire), or other unforeseeable mishaps. And I agree with that, to a point. I mean, the Sonic 2 prototype ROM is preserved due to the fact that hundreds if not thousands of people have a copy of the ROM. We can be reasonably sure that it will exist for a long time to come, long after the original carts are worthless.

I think people should privately back up their protos, hold onto them for a year or two, then release the contents. Of course, that's just my personal opinion, and in no way will I denigrate anyone who disagrees. That's the way I'd handle a proto that I owned (I would have done it with my Sonic 3 EPROM had it not been the final binary).

 

I totally agree with you!

 

What's the point in that? That's just dumb ! Shit, I have a SNES Proto here. Why don't I take out the EPROM and claim it's a board from some unreleased SNES game. I could make 100's on it. !

Yakumo

 

Wow! 'nuff said!

 

I wouldnt ever dump anything be it a SmS cart or the sonic cd which is currently up for sale. If im going to blow $3000 on a cdr it stays with me.
Also look at the legalitys of it, if your being a pedantic twat you can argue even owning it is handeling stolen goods.
Id rather not make a fuss about it and have hanging in my gallery where on dark cold nights I don my smoking jacket and with a glass of the finest brandy in one hand a cuban cigar in the other, look at it and think "Yes Im the only person to own that."

 

Ok Qjimbo, just to put a slightly different angle on things here to see if it helps you understand the nature of the argument.

You argue that if someone has a desired prototype that others want, they should release it because there are others who want it but can't affort to buy it themselves/don't see it as valuable enough to them to pay the going rate themselves.

What this would mean for the proto owner is that they should stump up for the proto (including going through the work to find/acquire it) and then give it away to everyone else at their own expense. they should apparently do this because there are others who want it but can't afford it.

So, proto owner coughs up the money (money which didn't come easy) and then ensures that he can never get back anywhere near his original outlay.

NOTE: Bear in mind prototypes hold a relatively high value because of their investment value - that being that you can usually at least recoup your outlay in future should you choose to sell it later.. but only if the proto retains it's key asset - the fact that it is hard to acquire and not freely availible elsewhere. Nobody buys if they can get it for free - right?, that is one of the key points you make (particularily with people stupid enough to pay such prices remark).

Now, this equates to your seeing a expensive piece of software (say a programming suite) you want and going upto a random stranger and asking him for $1500 so you can get said software and pirate it for others who may want to use it for their coding efforts, then calling him selfish for declining the chance to give you (a stranger) $1500.

Now, all of your friends and you will no doubt get something out of having access to the pirated copies of said software, but why should the stranger give you $1500?

Do you ask strangers on the street to give you money when you see a game you want?. After all you could just copy it for your friends. Or, if you find it closer to the original point, do you wait for someone to buy a magazine you want then demand they photocopy it for you and everyone else who wants to read it, but has their own excuse as to why they couldn't/wouldn't pay for it themselves?

If you want a unreleased game but it's out of your reach, try to organise enough people to pool together to buy it, that way instead of costing you $1500 it only costs $150, $75, $50 etc..
And don't say even that ammount of money is out of reach, even at 13 with a paper round I could raise that much. you just actually have to put in the effort for it like the guys who buy these things. If you don't think it's worth that effort, then your need and intent for it obviously isn't as profound as you would have others believe.

 

This is more about your priorities than games. You are almost 19 yrs old so don't talk about not being able to get a job because if you wanted the money badly enough you could. Maybe you don't have one because you're in school and feel you don't have the time. Maybe your just lazy and mooching off the parents. Maybe you have a job and the money has to go to other stuff. I don't know.

Be it studies, slacking, or whatever in all of those cases you have prioritized something else over saving the money to buy these types of games. That is your choice and is fine. Don't expect someone else though who has prioritized getting these games to supply you with them. It's their choice if they want to but not their responsibility.

 

Look, Qjimbo, I see your point. Then again, I am a communist, so that's no surprise. The thing is, collectors are right as well.

Even if the information is useful, and it wasn't (in many times) finally used for financial gain, the fact is that the prototype does have a financial value for collectors. While the value, in plain old economics, should not be lower after dumping the proto, since the "original" proto is still in the collectors hands, the actual significant "value" of the proto, the essence of its significance as a collectible, is the fact that it's unique and exclusive.

This can be lost with dumping. Even more because 1) there are leeches that ruined this for you, and 2) Man has the instinct to want to be the first and only to "own" something. It does indeed come from the reproductive instincts of man, like Karsten suspected - but that's our nature, and as such, the collectors are not wrong in defending their property. This is the kind of world in which we live. The collectors are not bad people. Neither are the people that go for the freedom of information. I guess instead of demanding of collectors the release of a proto, you are to rely, cliché as this is, on the kindness of strangers. Some collectors will probably not give a damn about their investment and dump what they have. It's theirs to dump or not dump. So I'm guessing you'll have to stick with those options. They paid for it, and the value is lost if someone else has it. In a capitalist society, anyway. So they have the right not to release and that doesn't make them selfish or bad at all. They also have the right to make it public, and that's your option.

Sorry for the long winded opinion.

 

It would be cool to run some kind of foundation or non-profit org who's sole reason to exist would be ther preservation of video games. Kind of like how you have these various Historical socities around the country in any particular city, the group in town that tries to keep all the old historical buildings intact or whatever. That would be something that if I won the lottery I would start.

But the thing is here Qjimbo (if you're still reading this thread) we people here aren't interested in the preservation or sharing of ROMS for the good of mankind, we're collectors, not historians. I've managed to get my hands on a few beta versions of various games, one day I may dump them. But if i do it will be only after I've copied and sold the originals. Becasue to do so degrades the value of my collection.

It's an arguement akin to a private collector who say has some piece of ancinet Egyptian artwork that's worth millions of dollars. He keeps it in his private collection, for his enjoyment only. Now some would say that by doing so he's depriving the world of a valuble treasure, but by donating that piece to a museam he's devalueing his collection. Without his efforts chances are the piece would still be out in the desert somewhere.

A rare prototype isn't a rare prototype anymore if everyone has it. Without the incentive to keep things like this for thier collector's value (which may be monetary, or merely bragging rights) nobody would really be interested enough to go through the trouble to collect them in the first place.

Hope this thread didn't scare you away.

 

And that right there is the crux of the matter - collection vs. preservation.

All I really ask is that protos are at least privately backed up. Which I do believe that more and more collectors are doing nowadays. Because if someone has an EPROM cart, and never dumps it, ever, then one day it will have bitrotted and then NOONE has that proto, and it's just another worthless EPROM cart. Regardless of the argued effects of dumping a ROM on a sale, private dumping will not harm the resale value, as a backup can easily be destroyed.

Basically, I advocate preservation first. But, for a compromise, I advocate what I mentioned earlier in the thread.