To learn or to keep hidden...

I find it funny that people think they "have a right" to see this unreleased stuff.

If someone buys something, it is up to them what they do with it. And don't forget, it is STILL copyrighted. Just because they own the original media doesn't mean they have ANY rights to it. In fact, if they released it, the developer could, if they wished:

1. Sue
2. Confiscate the original media

Add that to the depreciation of value, and tell me again, who has nothing to lose?

 

Well, I view it as more of "it's fucking awesome if I get to see it" rather than "I have a right to see it". I personally believe that all prototypes should be preserved, but also private collectors can do as they wish.

I've seen two compelling arguments regarding the value of prototypes - one posits that the data is the valuable part, and the other posits that the original media is the valuable part. I believe a mix of these - the data is valuable, but having the data on original media is even more valuable. For example, my Sonic 3 EPROM. It's the final binary, but still it's a prototype cart, and thus it holds value for me. Look at all the Atari 2600 protos that are final revisions, yet they still hold value.

 

Anyone mind if I stub this out? *blows smoke ring*

To quote a song from an anime:

Gurugu mawaru! Gurugu mawaru!

 

I think pretty much everybody agrees with that (except QJimbo). It's really cool of someone to release something, but even if they don't, it's still in their best interest to back it up.

 

Let me have a go at this before this topic gets closed!!!

You're a COMMUNIST, STFU!!!

I don't want someone to benefit off the things I worked hard for.

I've owned prototypes before and paid out the ass to obtain them. I think I was the first person in this community to own a developer hardware for the 32x!!! That's an obscure system!! Also, I tried to make use of it, but I didn't have the tools neccesary to make it work.

I ended up trading that to get a few dev items from assembler.

If I could visit that guys house again, but we're no longer friends, and probably threw that stuff out. I'd take pictures of the concept-prototype Chris Senn showed to the execs back in 95 that ran on the 32x hardware!!! Thats how you contribute to the community. What I did with the 32x flash cart when I had it, I posted pictures of the hardware and looked up as much information about the chips, etc and shared it with this board. THATS how you contribute and I'm sure the buyer of the Sonic Xtreme saturn version will share pictures, video, and what not (but not the freaking ISO of the game) to this community. Again, thats how you give back to the community AND RETAIN THE VALUE of the item. That sonic 2 beta is worthless now. I'd get as much out of it by looking at the pictures and reading what they wrote about than I would by playing the ROM.


As for the ferrari clone idea you spit out. It makes the ferrari common, then the person who paid $250k for it ended up wasting his money because now everyone has one.

This same concept of retaining value and INTEGRITY of an item is used in Museums, theatre, etc. You can walk into a museum and see valueable pieces of artwork and not pay 250,000 or a million dollars, you just pay an admissions fee and you end up experiencing the same thing you would if you were to pay that much.

What I'm trying to say is. Ask the owner nicely to take pictures of his or her prototype, whatever, and they'll do it. They'll still have their precious prototype and it will still keep its value and we, the community, will be happy to have more information about the history of videogames.

Anthony O.

Now you can close this thread...

 

First of all, the buyer is going to be spreading it around (if it ends up being ratman, that is), and I'm sure he knows that it will eventually end up as a BIN/CUE on the net. Second, the Sonic 2 beta is not worthless. There was never an authentic prototype cart found, only a pirated copy (which was pirated way back in 1992), so as far as authentic prototypes carts go, it's not even relevant, since there is no existing authentic prototype of Sonic 2 in private hands. Nonetheless, the data is authentic, so it's still relevant to the larger discussion. Lots of things have been found by having widespread access to the binary data (for example, unused badnik tiles, data from previous builds, etc). None of those things could have been found by any other method than having access to the ROM binary, and I imagine there will at least be some stuff on the disc that you'd have to hack to see, and the more people that have the contents, the more likely you are to find something that's completely hidden away.

You have extremists on both ends (those that think that ALL protos should be forcefully dumped and spread, and those that think that they NEVER should be). It's not for you to say that it's wrong to give to the community by spreading the contents of a prototype. If you have protos, then it is for you to say regarding your own protos. Just because the data on the disc is spread around doesn't lessen the value of the original media that much (and in my opinion, if someone passes up honest-to-God authentic media just because it's been copied, then they are an idiot).

Value is relative, and that's where people are butting heads. To some people, the data is more valuable than the authentic cart, to some people the authentic cart is more valuable than the data it holds, and to some people both are true (like myself).

 

Usually, the owner likes to keep the value. Some people buy these as an investment because some of these items increase in value as time goes on and as long as they are hard to find elsewhere, like the NEO GEO AES, a system with all the hookups and proper mods will someday be worth $2,000 and authentic copies even more.

Overall, it is up to the owner if they want to dump it or not. I'd be like, thanks for the freebie, if they give it away, but I wouldn't care if they decide not to share any pictures whatsoever. It might be a lose, at that moment, to this community, but that item might end up with someone else who is more generous. Basically, we as individuals and people have no control over other people to have them do things to our benefit, even if they dont benefit that person at all. Its just not right. You're basically being disrespectful. I don't lose anything personally if the buyer of Sonic Xtreme demo 1 changes his mind and decides not share any information what so ever, so I don't really care.

 

After this thread I am beginning to see this from your perspective I must admit, which is why I made the thread in the first place, partly to try and get some of you to be generous () and partly to understand the whole collector attitude thing. I mean this debate has gone on for decades, I didn't expect to change anything, it just seemed like a topic for a cool debate . You can lock the topic if you want but I don't think the thread is peticularly out of hand to warrent it.

 

Well, I agree with you. That's why I was chipping in money to buy SX, I was just doing my part to try and help getting the disc. I have my own personal beliefs, but I also recognize that owners of prototypes can do whatever they want with them, including complete destruction without backup (it would make me sad to see that done, but it's their right).

 

My thoughts about this:
1) I completely disagree with most people in this tread. Having a media in your personal collection ONLY is like don't having it at all. It's useless, lost to community and you could just take a random cd-r, write "Sonic beta" on it and keep it. I wan't force you into releasing it, as you DO have the right to keep it, but it's really pointless IMO. Also the attitude of the people is scaring me - guy just asked about beta, you don't have to kill him with your responses. You have to realise that to some people it takes alot of time to collect such amount of money and they simply just can't spend it on beta game. While they want to see it and (IMO) deserve it.
It's not everything about the money. Yes, it's a valuable item, you could just keep it and sell again - but that's just wrong imo.
2) These games should be distributed just for the preservation of them. We already lost them and if you don't release them - they could be lost forever. In that case their value is just zero, as you could pretend that they never existed in the 1st place. That's what guys at MAME and various iso dumping groups (Darkwater, Silvergun, etc.) are doing - they are spending THEIR cash to SHARE games with world, in their original form - so that they could be preserved, played and enjoyed by future generations of games. And not lost forever on dusty shelf of some collector, who likes to keep all his stuff to himself.
Judging by your views, we shouldn't have any roms/isos or backups at all - it's only original media that they should be keep in (and to be resell for a few thousand dollars in the future, when all other copies will die, heh).
3) This same concept of retaining value and INTEGRITY of an item is used in Museums, theatre, etc. You can walk into a museum and see valueable pieces of artwork and not pay 250,000 or a million dollars, you just pay an admissions fee and you end up experiencing the same thing you would if you were to pay that much.
No. I want to LOOK at picture and i want to PLAY the game. In your example, they should just have a pieces of paper with artwork's description on the walls.
4) Money. It's not all about the value of the game. It's right in the hardware part, but with betas it's just wrong... It's like all you care is money, value, etc. - yeah, it's nice to have a unique beta all by yourself, but at the same time you're taking it from the world/other people. It maybe right, maybe wrong - but I think that basically destroying betas by never releasing them is wrong. Not everything in this world is just about money, you know ?
I think that these games should be distributed as collective purchase and then releasing the iso - this way game will be preserved and people don't have to spend that much cash on it.
5) Final thought - I can't change what other people thing about betas and I won't do it - you can keep them to yourselfs, not release them, resell, etc. - not the best way of doing it, but hey, it's your choice. I just believe that games should be distributed and made available to the public (to research and just to play) - this way we're preserving them. Collecting is nice, but it's just wrong to do it your way, by storing them away and never releasing. They could be lost FOREVER.

Well, sorry for any mistakes and don't take it too seriously - this was just my opinion Feel free to discuss any further

 

Im pretty sure its actually having it...

No that cd wont have sonic beta. The actuall beta i will be able to play it.

It really isnt pointless for whoever gets to play it.

Yes im sure everyone knows that. As 90% of people here have full on hardworking jobs. Who live in houses with leaking roofs and eat crap for most of their days so they can afford a beta.

ANSWER this ONE POINT with a GOOD reason... Why do they deserve it?

 

*skips over 2235 posts*

I agree. And welcome to the board

 

Thats my dream and (I hope) ASSEMbler's dream as well, which is to have a physical location where people will be able to interact with such beta software, like Sonic Xtreme. An Interactive Museum on Obscure and Rare Videogame Hardware and Software. Art museums the world over do not let the people touch the artwork. In museums like the baseball hall of fame they do not let the people take home the bat Babe Ruth used for his last home run and swing that bat at their home for fear that it will break, unless that person buys that bat.

All there is at the moment is just pictures and descpriptions for this type of material because thats all this place can afford. Be thankful you dont have to pay to view the information on this website nor have to go through tons of popups those MAME and ISO sites make you go through.

 

Which aint ever going to happen if people dont stop begging collectors and start bugging developers.

 

This is my perspective:

1. I agree with the folks that say there's no "right" to a prototype ROM/CD/DVD's contents. I paid well over $1,000 about a month ago for a great haul, and after announcing it had people asking me to dump them and distribute them widely. Uh, no. It's a partial investment in addition to my playtime with these rarities. I can't afford to just blow $1,000 on some items and turn around and effectively kill their worth; why would I have ever spent that much to begin with when that haul decimated my videogame budget for some months to come?

I should add, the value of that haul is considerably more than I paid for it. I lucked out bigtime as several turned out to be one-of-a-kind. I gladly shared my discovery with the gaming community by taking screenshots and posting differences between my protos, other known protos, and released versions so people could enjoy and share in the discovery.

2. I get my ROMs dumped by a very trustworthy guy. VERY. I give certain trustworthy people (that I've known for years) ROMs to some of my one-of-a-kinds, and they do the same in turn. Too many people out there would promise the world and two weeks later I'd see it all over the Internet. It's happened before on me, so I've no choice but to be extremely selective over whom I give what to.

I'm really not a selfish guy; after all, I'm getting something out of this, and so are they. I'm all for those who can afford to blow thousands and throw things out there for everyone. In fact, I'm considering a rare ROM release for either the Jaguar or Lynx in the next few months. For everyone. But it sure can't and won't be my most prized items; I simply cannot afford the loss without something equally valuable in return. I also have to consider others who might have the same prototype version and don't wish to release it out of their concerns. Even if I released items willy-nilly, I run the risk of not only deflating my collection's worth, but others as well. That's unfair to them to the nth degree.

By the way, this isn't to say I wouldn't LOVE it if I could have everyone over to play them. Sharing your experience isn't limited to giving away your hard-earned items. I'd consider letting someone take a couple to CGE for people to enjoy, and it's been a thought at the back of my head for a long time now. ASSEMbler's museum idea sounds keen as hell.

3. Not backing up your rare/proto ROMs/CDs/DVDs is playing with fire. A fire covered in gasoline, rubbing alcohol, newspaper, and tinder.

4. In a perfect world, game companies would just throw these items to the wind for all to enjoy. But as we all know, the world isn't perfect (by a long stretch) and life isn't fair. It takes hours, days, weeks, months, and sometimes years to find these. That time isn't even calculable in terms of money. If anything, I think that dedication and effort gives collectors an even more insurmountable right to hold them privately if they so choose.

5. Finally, for those that feel entitled to enjoy the spoils of someone else's dedication and hard work, look at it from the other perspective. Would you dump every game you've ever purchased and give them away for free? On demand? From people who think they deserve them? Really, step back and think about that, and try being content in what IS available (which is quite a lot, actually), rather than what ISN'T. Ask for screens and information (which I proudly and happily provide, as should all proto/rarity owners in my opinion), but not the whole goddamned thing.

In fact, here, enjoy! I've posted a bunch of screens and photos of each of my prototypes here, and have yet to finish getting my Sega protos done: http://www.op9.net/vg/index.php/full_collection

If you want concrete info on each of them, you'll have to head over to my blog, or Jaysmith2000's Jaguar Sector II where I posted details of each. I do consider myself somewhat of a historian in that I share the information I get from these prototypes; I just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

 

You're watching School Rumble now, Tach? Great, isn't it? :smt043

And Qjimbo, if you're really interested in learning to hack through game code for hidden gems that were never released, just get yourself a N64, the last revision of the Gameshark, and a copy of Perfect Dark and Goldeneye 007. Those have enough buried goodies to last quite some time.

While I slightly agree with you on the 'information (of this sort) should be free!' part, it IS awfully arrogant of one to expect that someone who has paid hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a rare prototype should just then turn around and distribute the contents for nothing.
And the Ferrarri argument - I must say - is pretty darned ridiculous. How in the hell is someone going to clone a Ferrari? Scenarios that have no basis in reality do not a valid argument make. Paulo made the proper point - if you just purchased a brand, spanking new, shiny yellow (because red sports cars are so passe) Bugatti EB110, I'd be willing to bet you're NOT going to loan it out to every one of your friends who needs to use it for the hot date they had planned later that night.

So again - while I would love to see every unreleased proto out there freely available to whomever wants it, I - along with anybody else - have no right to dictate to proto owners what they should or should not do with what's theirs. It's may be a lousy system, but that's the way that works. If you want to change it, I suggest doing like everyone else has said - find a means of employment, save up for some protos, and get them dumped/released on your own. It would certainly be a more positive use of your time and energy, and you most likely won't be burning any bridges with potential sellers that way, either.

 

We're all here on this forum because in one way or another we're all interested in Dev hardware and unreleased games, etc. I personally like to look at dev kits, but I have no interest in owning one. Why? Because I can't code, therefore owning a Katana would be pretty damn pointless. I am however interested in fully complete unreleased games.

It seems all this is boiling down to two things: Money and the virtual extension of a body-part.

But the whole attitude of "I have Unreleased Game X, nah-nah-nah, I'm the only one who can play it", is very sad. Ok, so you've just spent, say, $2000 on one GD-R. You obviously want to protect that investment. And technically, you shouldn't really have this disk in the first place. But to say that dumping the game makes the original is worthless is wrong. It will knock a lot off the value, but you still have the original. A GD-R of a game will always be worth more that a CD-R containing the same code. It may also be less appealing to the masses as most people would be happy with a CD-R copy. But I'm sure there are members of this forum that would still be interested in a real GD-R of Prop Arena?

But this whole idea of worth and monetary value comes into question when you decide you're gonna keep that GD-R forever. Yes, it may be worth $2000, but if you're never gonna sell it, than that cash is never gonna be realised. You've spent your cash. You're never gonna see that cash again unless you sell your GD-R.

However, I'm not going to tell people what to do with their cash and their collection. You're the one that's been to work to pay for it, so it's your call. Just remember though, money isn't everything. We're all here for a finite time and you can't take your cash (or your GD-R) with you when the Reaper tells you it's time for game over.

Basically, I want Take the Bullet to see the light of day. We all know who owns this game, and that they won't release it. So let it be known, as of mid-December/January time I am willing to pay $1500/£800 for TtB to be ripped, in order to compensate for any loss that the owner feels they would have suffered. I'm not shitting anyone. I want the world to play this game and I am willing to pay for it to be ripped, or I'll purchase the damn GD-R. I have no interest in owning the original disk though as I wouldn't know what to do with it (so I'd sell it for a muchly reduced reasonable amount).

And as for the Communism comment (whoever that was), so you really think we all live in a true Democracy? LOL.

 

I'm in agreeance with you on the value of the original once a dump is made, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish

 

Compensating the holder of a prototype to dump their ROM/CD/DVD for release is really entirely different than those who would rather bug collectors to give it away for free without compensation. Like I mentioned beforehand, if someone wants to front money to bring the game to a wider audience, I'm all for it. Many of us, however, just don't have that kind of cash to lose in the first place. Many others in agreement in this thread have posted brilliant examples of why rights are to be determined only by the holder, and not be the requesting party. I find your efforts very admirable, honestly, and if I were a millionaire, things would be a whole lot different in that department.

And if I should die, at least I'll know my wife has some cash to move forward with. I'm pretty sure I know a couple of people that'd buy large parts of my collection outright at a very reasonable price if I don't have the chance to sell it myself someday. I could say the same thing for my stock portfolio, savings, and other investments; but I'm sure as hell not going to give those away to anyone who asks, either. (FYI, I do donate good sums of money to those in need. Operative word: NEED.)

By your logic, we really shouldn't worry about holding onto anything potentially valuable that someone else might want a piece of, for we could all die tomorrow. I can't buy that logic, and tend to prefer thinking I'll still be around in 2040 with a gamepad in hand. If we all really lived like today was our last day, trust me, you wouldn't like this planet much.

Still, chances are someday when I really need the cash, I'll sell the prototypes and one-of-a-kinds off. It's happened in the past with my large MegaCD prototype collection, and although I regret it, life moves on and someone else gets to enjoy them hopefully as much as I did.

 

Well, just for kindness and the matter of sharing with world But that's just me.
I just think that owning a game which will never see the light of public release is like not owning game at all. And yes, I wolud release something if I could find one for affordable price for me (alas these 3000$ auctions are a bit off my budget - I could buy them, but then I'll have to save for a few years on food and everything ).
Anyways, it's up to you to decide what ot do with them - but sharing is a wonderful thing
Maybe you guys should exchange releases of your betas - this way you'll get something valuable in return while letting all others to play it too Heh, j/k.