This is the perfect example of man destroying what religion should be. The same thing happens in the west. I don't recall Jesus or God ever giving the thumbs up on any war... yet, every war monger President we've had was a reported bible thumper... or at least a pretend one.
We've only been working on freedom for hundreds of years, nothing compared to their traditions. It only takes two death threats from two people to say "there have been death threatS against XXXXX by Muslims. A death threat or even an actual assassination is certainly more of a symbol than just a murder. They're a little more serious about this than us if we're just drawing pictures. It's completely pointless except to piss them off by throwing sand in their face (EDIT I didn't intend that to sound like a pun). Every culture has it's motherfuckers. I don't think Islam has more, I think they're just in our sights and a lot of them are just trying to defend what they believe in. The USA did just drop a huge democracy load over there.
I read a pretty good quote somewhere. "How important does someone have to be for their murder to be classified as an assassination?"
I think the problem here is, there is no good reason why these people should be wishing death on non-members of their religion, whose actions do not affect them in the slightest. What if some guy in Iran drew a caricature of Jesus Christ? Would you threaten him with death? Who gives a crap what some dumbshit thinks half a world away? The way I see it, the tenants of your religion apply only to those who follow said religion, no one has a right to enforce them on others. We should not expect anyone to give special treatment to one religion over other religions. So they're gonna get pissed if I draw a cartoon? Blow me. They can draw their own cartoons if they want, who cares. This is the same answer I give to Christian fundamentalists who try to censor music, movies, games, etc. One cannot legislate morality, nor can one enforce it through violence or threats. Anyone who tries is in the wrong. That crap might have worked a thousand years ago but this is the 21st century. If you don't want your people to be exposed to the ideas of others feel free to ban television or the internet in your country, your people are the ones who lose.
One should never let religion intrude state law. That's where the dark middle ages began and countries like Iran are the places on earth that are still stuck there. To come back to the initial subject, I believe it is important for us to do not show wrong tolerance. Apologizing for satire, drawn by ONE non-representative cartoonist, when, at the same time, people are answering by burning flags on the street, equally non-representative people. That's just fucked up, as if we were kids again playing in the sandbox and the some guy suddenly starts a fight with you over something insignificant, only difference is that you don't fight back but start apologizing for your own lack of empathy.
The first human rights ever were founded by a Persian King in what is today Iran. The mess that is the Islamic Revolution should not be confused with the will of the people of Iran. They wanted to get rid of the Shah because of his corruption. I m sure they didn't want to invite even more corruption and lack of rights to their lives. In total, I consider that lack of proper education is what leads people to act on religion. People need to know that their need for religion is a human need, arising out of curiosity and the lack of explanations. It is an internal mechanism for acquiring hope and keeping in check with one self, and as all instincts its purpose is our survival. We have evolved as a society, instincts are not and should not be acted upon if we are to live together. Else murder would be free for all,as would be theft, jealousy, revenge, all very human and basic needs when it comes to surviving. I accept the right for people to believe what they want to but to act upon it in a detrimental manner for others is just crossing the line. Religion should be personal and shunned from public gatherings. The Romans knew well.
Hey, while we are at human rights, I must say something about my own country, and what UN and its little watchdog (Amnesty International) are saying about Denmark (true words) and that is, we (the government) are violating the human rights every day with what the cops do and did (the climate meeting is just one of those cases I am thinking off, but I can mention LOADS and I mean LOADS) of other cases where the police, and the Danish politicians has violated the "sacred" human rights, I as a person is (personally) is trying to uphold. So just because we shout out about the rights, those people are violating. Then maybe I/we as human beings should take a greater look on to our own countries, and see what human rights THEY are violating. And if you want facts in English, then google the facts about what I have just said. I have read the human rights a few times and no, it is not only the wikipedia article I am thinking off. But capital punishment, aka the death penalty is a CRYSTAL clear violation of the human rights. But I am not the one to judge others about, if I am not aware of my own faults. And oh by the way, I think most of us knows the bible GOOD ENOUGH, so we do NOT have to throw JC sayings and scriptures, in each others faces: Right ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights
A thousand words indeed... I'm more about propositional logic with this: if islamofascists dont believe in freedom of expression, freedom to choose a religion, democracy or human rights, why should we give them any of that? why should we respect their right to exist if they dont respect ours? You can't argue with a fanatic, you cant convince him/her to stop, you have to physically stop it. The west is enabling this behavior by letting things go by in the name of multiculturalism and leaving the few muslim moderates and reformers on their own with no actual help whatsoever. Talking with the nazis and the rest of the fascists didn't stop WWII, it actually made it happen.
BTW its not about religion but belief. You dont need a religion to be a complete fuckup genocidal nutjob, you only need a doctrine, a dogma, something that cant be changed and you're stupid enough to defend to the very end. How does religious fanatism explains the massive killings in soviet russia and maoist china? after all religions of any kind were banned back then in those places (or severely restricted). What they did was change god for the state, and prophets and messiahs for the "dear leader". Whats amazing is that while no one can blame jesus directly for what the christians have done, you could very well blame the likes of stalin and mao for what happened in their respective countries. Not only were they the ones who created a cult of personality around them, but it was during their regimes that madness ruled above the lives of millions, making hitler's holocaust look like a lame attempt at mass murder. And these fuckers still lurk among us to this day. Simply put, you cant tolerate those that wont tolerate you, thats what they want.
That is just your perception though, religion obviously doesn't matter one iota to you - replace the baby example in my previous post with a cartoon of your mother getting tag raped (I don't mean to cause offense to you personally btw, just want an example that would make anyone angry) - I assume you'd be proper angry at the artist? I imagine thats how the followers of Islam feel about this situation. Sure, you might not send death threats to said artist, but repeat that experiment with a 1000 people and I'm sure at least one would do so. As Alecjahn said you get nutcases of all colour/creed etc, you get people sending musicians death threats for changing musical direction for example. Now that is a lot more fucked up than for the whole muhammed drawing death threats thing no? And thus it will be an eye for an eye forever. Personally I don't strike out except in self defense. Most of Islam does tolerate the West. Shock horror there might even be followers of Islam that live in and love your country. I know there are in the UK. Monkey Dust has good sketches on that subject :thumbsup: You can't generalize a whole religion like that though on the basis of a few nutters. Does the Westboro baptist church typify the whole of Christianity?
No, an eye for an eye is a state of permanent warfare, and as such any action will have a consequence equal or even bigger from the opposite side, which is pretty much whats ALREADY going on between the islamist themselves, and part of the west. What I'm saying is basic logic: you cant be diplomatic with a warmonger. The islamofascists are complete sociopaths, they dont see the end of hostilities as peace, but as time to regroup and counter attack. They trive on the weakness of the world to take a stand against them, just like they been growing up since the failure of democratic and reformist governments in their countries during the 50s and 60s (which BTW was due to negative western interventionism). The war these new islamofascist governments are waging is also a big propaganda weapon: iran which is the powerhouse of the muslim world still has to deal with over 20% of unemployment and 30% of annual inflation, which takes its toll on the population. Now these corrupt bastards could fix this if they would just stop stealing the money from the people, but is much easier to blame it on somebody else, since it creates distraction. Even if you take non-muslims out of the equation the war continues, since theres a lot of hate between different parts of the muslim world. Where the shia are the majority kids are indoctrinated by public schools to hate the sunni. It would be impossible for you to find a course on anti-islamism on any western university, but anti-american studies is a whole branch in many universities all over the islamic world. And why do I say islamofascists? well the current trend towards wahhabism (which is actually a corruption of the original principle of pan-arabic unity towards one of totalitarianism) comes from this fucker called amin al-husseini, who during WWII was BFF with, guess who? yep, hitler. He would later go to be the leader of the muslim brotherhood, who wants to kill or convert anyone who's not muslim, specially the jews. EDIT: Good times
BTW, looking for that pic I found this quote by heinrich himmler to goebbels , which I find very interesting: “ have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers.” He was talking about the 26.000 troops provided by that a-hole husseini to the third reich. Needless to say they were all muslim,
Ehr.. Shiah Muslims, ie most of Iranians have nothing to do with the extremists you know as terrorists. You're making this seem like there's a guy with a plan to end the world under every rock. Additionally, do keep in mind that many of those who are labeled to be terrorists are often funded by non-religious entities to serve various purposes. Also, media glorify everything. They make monsters out of kittens and Governments have taken a liking to this. The West isn't doing really a whole lot to show that they're OK with Islam. If people of Muslim religion browse this forum and see your comments they' ll obviously think we re all dicks, and vice versa. It's a never ending chain. Often I wonder how Muslim kids feel about playing games like Modern Warfare etc. I know it's a fun setting but not everyone cheers for the same team buddy.
Where, in my post, did I mention terrorism? Go ahead, look for it. .........found anything? ¬_¬ The fact is that iran is a powerhouse, like brazil in south america. Unlike the saudis and others they do have an economy that relies on something else than oil, and they're bigger than syria, jordan or iraq. Mainstream media doesnt know shit about whats going on, and what little they report is watered down, god forbid all the idiots watching that catch a glimpse of whats happening on the outside... And I think I'm being very reasonable when I say we should support moderate muslims and give the batshit insane islamofascists the finger. Had we done that 50 years ago we wouldnt be in this problem, and back then these backward idiots were a bunch of nobodies. BTW, the whole "not every muslim is like this" thing, is becoming more of a lie everyday. Sure, most muslims rejected wahhabism............in early 20th century. Right now? is all the rage, and with the oligarchy making life miserable for everyone there, hating the west is the only option if you want to protest. Do otherwise and you'll be hanged in the street, literally.
Right, gotcha. Skimmed posts a bit beforehand as I was busy, presumed you meant the whole of Islam etc rather than the islamfascists as you point out. The problem is however, bringing it back to the original post, is that drawing Mohammed doesn't discriminate between the crazies or the rest of Islam. Thus such a drawing pisses off a few a hell of a lot and a lot a fair bit. The lot are innocent bystanders that didn't ask for it.
You know whats the weirdest thing of all this scandal? the muslims were offended.... Not because he has a friggin' turban bomb Not because he looks like a racist arab stereotype .........but because someone actually draw the guy! how stupid is that? seriously, they didn't care that it was the equivalent of drawing a homo jesus (and showing it to pat robertson) but that someone dared to picture him. Thats pure dogmatic madness...
Well if you were clever you would understand that in their religion there is clear instruction that the prophet should not be drawn, in honor of him. that's like asking someone not to draw a Swastika - it OFFENDS. get it? people will be passionate about their personal views, just like you are defending yours despite sounding uninformed.
hmmm, and now Bangladesh is in this shebang, oh how lovely. My little country went stupid, back with the 11 drawings, but only the terrorist asshole with a bomb in his turban is getting hammered. But then again I really do not care about it any more. Other than I actually like the support I read through some of the posts here and there.
