ServiceGames, the need to evolve religion in modern times arises out of the fact that the stories that are contained in each book, any religion, might not hold up to many of today's actual definitions. There's no story about the bad marketing assistant and the good lawyer so it's hard for people like us to relate
Nope, it would be the same if I drawed mohamed being raped by a goat in the wall of a mosque, just like some "kids" like to draw swastikas in jewish graveyards. This whole scandal has nothing to do with drawing mohamed but with the objective of imposing islamic thinking in the west, since if you cant say shit about them, how are you going to criticize it in the slightest form? They want to become untouchable, just like the Church was a hundred years ago, and boy those were happy times! Ahh but the rule isnt counter-re.cipr.oc.ate, they actually CAN use freedom of expression AGAINST us even when they shouldnt use it at all according to their scriptures, so why the fuck should we hold ourselves back? Err, I think we have. Most of our anscestors 800 years ago or so were roaming the lands of europe, chasing infidel moors (guess who?) and BURNING THEM IN PYRES, ALIVE BTW:flamethrower: Now, a message to rabid muslisms everywhere: do you assholes want to go back to that? seriously? Now that you guys are 'global' about islam and shit you should know theres almost 6 non-muslims for every one of you, so you're a little outnumbered. We also have more weapons, money and technology... If a global hatred of muslims akin to that of islamofascists became the rule then pretty much everyone living between europe and india would be wiped out from the face of the earth. ...............and yes, even after a massive nuclear attack the rest of the world could still take your oil, so thats not a good defense.
no need to be dramatic, referring to your audience as assholes..dunno. I repeat: if a symbol, drawing, etc insults it just insults. Jews don't like Swastikas, Muslims don't like having Mo drawn, what's so hard to grasp? I m sure if a Muslim drew Jesus taking it then Christians would be offended as well, even more than if a Christian drew it. Pissing people off only leads to more pissing off, which in turn leads to all sorts of conflicts. As I said, you can't use Freedom of Expression as a weapon to insult others. It's unacceptable, you need to tolerate other people's personal beliefs, especially one so simple as to not draw a religious figure. I m sure you can draw it but whether you can defend it is a different story. You need to be pretty damn funny drawing him because else you're just being a douche who likes to piss people off just because he thinks he knows best. I invite all of you to just act maturely and let them be. Who cares about drawing Mohamed anyway, it won't solve any problems.
Exactly,also if they had it there way sharia law would be enforced everywhere,just look what the penalty for apostasy is as one example. Jesus is a prophet in Islam,and yes insults can hurt peoples feelings especially when its there religion but religion is not immune to criticism.
I'm going to say my personality must be different to everyone else in this thread, apart from Barcode. Because: Reading this, I can only assume you don't have any respect for them. I don't know if that is because you don't know them and they are distant (would you do the same to a Muslim friend?). IMO, I think you guys are taking the easy route. It is easy for someone to draw a picture - it is also easier for people to interpret from them. While that is fine in most occasions, here it is that method of delivery, rather than the subject, which offends. Thus it is taken as a personal slight by everyone that follows Islam. You can still protest in a way that doesn't cause offense. At the end of the day no one has threatened your (as a US citizen) rights to express freedom of speech - unless this stuff has caused a law in the US that I'm unaware of. Therefore you had no reason to simply offend people. I know you like drawing Hawanja, I've seen your other pics, but that doesn't mean it is the only thing you could do about it. If I was in the same position, and really had that much of a problem with it, I'd take an alternative route to expressing my freedom so that I didn't offend people unnecessarily - write an article for a facebook group stating why you believe religion shouldn't dictate the laws of a country. People are more likely to change their minds if you don't offend them, and offer a balanced argument - as it shows you've at least had the decency to observe their point of view - which incidentally also lends your argument more gravitas. I take it though that you don't give a shit about their view, whether that be because you don't give a shit about people that you don't know or because you don't give a shit about people who let religion govern their lives. Either way no one has lost my respect until they do ill (edit: even if they do do ill that doesn't mean I'd take an eye for a eye either - most situations allow you to be the better person); therefore I wouldn't want to cause them offense if there is another way. I also think that many people wouldn't draw these pictures with a Muslim face to face - not because they are afraid of being hurt, rather they wouldn't want to hurt their feelings. The anonymity of the internet does terrible things to peoples behavior.
Jews dont like swastikas because the last guy using one of those MURDERED 6 MILLION OF THEM!NOT BECAUSE SOME IDIOT DECIDED THEY DIDNT LIKE THE SYMBOL! How can you possibly think that can be compared to a danish guy drawing some dead dude? Cant you grasp the absurdity of all this? Most of the islamic raison d'être is actually MORE offensive to non-muslims than any of the shit they complaint about! Subjugation of women? killing of infidels? theocracy? that would be actually unbearable to most of us, not something that just pisses us off because some guy in a goofy hat says it's offensive. And this is not about drawing mohamed dumbass, but about 1/7th of the world population thinking they can tell the rest how to live their lives, which gets even worse considering the kind of shithole the islamic world is in pretty much every aspect! Or else why would so many muslims risk their lives trying to reach the western world? It isn't disneyland over there you know? Living there SUCKS, just like it did over here when the Church had the last word on EVERYTHING. Get it? see the problem now? PS: you bring a 1950s cartoon as proof? seriously? why don't you go and watch what they show on arab Tv all day? it makes the Sun look like a moderate news outlet.
The problem is not that I have no respect for them, it's that they want special treatment. They, as believers, want to be able to tell me, as an unbeliever, that I have to follow their beliefs, well sorry that's B.S. True it may be insulting, but you know what? That's not my problem. It would be different if I were to deliberately create artwork with the express intention of insulting Islam (such as the example of painting Mohammed doing something nasty on the wall of a mosque) then yes that would be out of line, but the simple fact of me breaking a cultural taboo of a religion that I do not believe should not result in me getting death threats. You know, nobody forces these people to watch Southpark. Nobody forces them to buy those Sweedish magazines with the cartoons in them. How about instead of hunting down and killing everyone who crosses your precious freakin' taboo, they instead use social pressures to shame those who do such things until people stop consuming their product? Think back to the 60s and civil rights in this country, how much progress do you think African Americans would have made if that movement was a violent one? Not very much. But over the course of 30 years they've changed the general attitudes about race in this country (well, at least on the outside...) I see no reason why Islam cannot do the same, but they won't accomplish it with death threats. You know I did deliberate with myself as to whether or not I was going to participate in this "event," because the Muslims get a lot of crap here in America, and I didn' t want to be identified with the more racist right wing in this country. But in the end freedom of speech trumps political correctness, and anyone who threatens violence for speech needs to be resisted.
the levels of insult are subjective. It doesnt have to be a fat dick down someone's throat always to make a drawing insulting. similarly, Shadowlayer, Swastikas are insulting because of the idea they represent. That idea is what insults, same as drawing Mohamed, the Muslim prophet. It's an idea that insults and to act upon it can practically cause nothing but controversy and harm. Freedom of exrpession can't be used as a weapon in the context of an act that will certainly create more trouble than its worth. You have to weigh the issues on balance to see if you'll summon such a great right for such a puny subject. Once more I see how most Americans prefer to brute force their way instead of being diplomatic.
Swastikas are a representation of the sun to many cultures, and a symbol to religions like Buddhism, what's the "idea" they represent? eh? You're comparing a dumb drawing contest with something that had actual repercussions and caused real damage to millions of people and several ethnic groups. On the other hand, you're defending the right of a certain group to continue the path of archaic tribal brutality, were anyone who does not submit to "the cause" deserves death and nothing else. To which I say: Fuck it! and if we ever have to walk that path again, be well assured that the other side (the one with the cross instead of the moon) is more than capable of unleashing the same amount of madness these mohammed enthusiasts have. And way to keep stereotypes rolling with the "lol americans are brutal!" crap. Why dont you go and ask the chechen how peaceful the russians were, or the vietnamese about how cool the chinese are Chamberlain showed how diplomacy worked with the fascists...
See I think it is worth the trouble. For the most part, those who care about this sort of thing in the Islamic world responded to Draw Mohamed day exactly in the way they should, with counter protest. They made their own drawings, videos, etc. But no one is blowing themselves up over this. So Pakistan banned Facebook for a week? Yeah I'm losing sleep over that. And really, this "event" is pretty far from brute force. Brute force would have been if we dropped a whole bunch of cluster bombs over Pakistan that when viewed from space made a giant face of Mohamed. Overall I think the whole event was pretty successful. Maybe these people will finally learn that when you attempt to force your ideas on others it only results in ridicule, and they might think twice about threatening someone with death for drawing a stupid picture.
there is this professional negotiations book [Getting to YES] used by top negotiators around the world, written by Roger Fish and William Ury, Harvard stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getting_to_YES at page 135 it clearly explains the reasons that Neville Chamberlain failed in negotiations with Hitler. this is isn't a similar issue however, there's no real war threat because of the drawing, it just insults most Muslims. Those who are hellbent to be against ther West will also add this to their list of "arguments". Those assholes (eg some leaders) can then use said argument to augment the naughtiness of us infidels in the eyes of their people, thus leading to more issues. Your point of view regarding freedom of expression won't make it to their ears, the drawings will though.
While we are at the whole fascism shit, then we must not forget that Israel has learned A LOT from Adolf Hitler when it comes to treating their Palestinian "neighbours" either.
The bit I find funny is when you see Asian Country X burning American flags, you find the same people proclaiming "freedom of speech" calling for heads to roll.
I say they didnt learn shit, there were a little over 100,000 palestines in the area when israel was created in 1948. How many are there today? over 1,500,000 and thats not counting those living abroad. I'll say that for an extermination plan, a fifteen-fold increase in the subjects to be eliminated means something is not right. That compared to 20 millions deaths by the nazis, 30 or more millions killed by stalin and his purges, and between 60 and 70 millions killed by mao during the great leap foward and the absurdly named cultural revolution. And all that happened in less than half the time it took the jews to go from "those poor refugees" to "the well poisoners!" again, all that engineered killing happened while the world stood there watching, and a lot of the so-called intellectualism in the west SUPPORTED THAT SHIT. But hey, a lot of intellectuals supported hitler too, remember Heidegger? At the end anyone can support any atrocious shit, as long as he/she has enough free time. Wait wait wait, so you say we have to literally play dead so the (according to you) evil muslims wont hurt us? I've a better idea: why dont they EVOLVE like every other culture and religion in the world has? Those leaders you mention are the problem, how can you possibly justify shit like gaddafi who stays in power for 50 years, steals money for his own people and has his family living in the most extravagant way while the rest of libya rottens in poverty? Fuck them! they will use anything as an argument because thats the only way they can keep their power BY KILLING THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND BLAMING THE WEST FOR EVERYTHING. Yes indeed, specially considering that most of those rallies are government-sponsored, and the people there are either paid to do it or forced (ie: if they dont go they lose their state jobs, or housing, etc...)
why create a problem where there was no issue previously? what of diplomacy? is willy waving your answer to people who manipulate their people and make your willy part of their issue? if anything you're giving them more food, just like a troll. oh wait..
Yeah I'm pretty much sure you're just trolling here, considering your point is completely moot, you just keep trowing shit around. Here, look at this: THATS afghanistan in the 50s and 60s, before the soviets and the taliban destroyed everything. What the hell? women studying? industry? people wearing clothes that dont look like out of the fucking bible? You only have to look at turkey and see the contrast with any other islamic country, and it will be clear that islam CAN evolve to a more civilized form. Why am I sure? because during the middle ages islam was MORE civilized than christianity. We evolved, why can't they?
