In light of the current situation with releasing games, what do you think should happen in future? Should we only have sanctioned releases? Should all releases be done through Kevin? Is it OK for users to do releases themselves? Should there be guidelines for the collection of payments, so as not to allow over-payment, and profiteering? I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on the matter. No offence meant to anyone involved, but my personal opinion is that I don't really trust (relatively) new members with such matters. I would much rather the release were handled properly, with someone in charge of the dumping, collection of payments, and release. Maybe even leave it to Kev. We don't want to turn into a war3z forum!!! I am particularly concerned that users who do not have privileges to access this forum know about this release. I don't really care if it is the owner who let them know, THIS SECTION IS PRIVATE AND SHOULD BE KEPT AS SUCH. Any leaks like this could easily turn into a widespread rumour, as happened with Prop Arena and Sonic, and jeopardize the community. So, on with the poll, and leave any comments, too.....
Im on the fence about this one As many people know myself and Parris have recently come across quite a nice find of unreleased titles, and we have deliberated for weeks on what to do about a release of said titles, which has caused both myself and Parris a great deal of stress, to the point where i have shelved the idea of releasing the games Its always a tough decision to make when it comes to dumping / releasing previously unreleased games, protos, debugs etc. and not necessarily down to monetary issues, you have to think of intellectual property rights, how it would affect other people who may also have copies / versions of the games as well, how to actually go about a release, whether it be public or between a select few people etc. I have been following the progress of the other release for the Nightmare buster game, and whilst i haven't made any comment on it or otherwise, there does seem to be some controversy over it, and i have taken this into account when/if myself and Parris decide to do a release of our material Personally i think that there should be more 'guidelines' on how to go about doing a fund-raiser / private sale / public release etc, again not only for collecting funds, but on the consequences and aftermath of doing such a thing I myself admit that i am completely out of my league when it comes to dealing with such matters, and i personally would greatly value other peoples input on how to gt the ball rolling as it were I realise that this topic may not be directed at me personally, but just wanted to get my thoughts across DD
Well apparently, this last little misunderstanding only happened because the other guy didn't see our fundraiser thread, because he doesn't have access to the 0th bit forum. It was going smooth until that last bit, but even then it was only a lack of communication.
One way to lessen communication problems is if we mandate that discussions and transactions only occur directly with the owner and not any middle-man, with the exception of well-respected ASSEMblergames members.
Actually if you want to prevent this from happening again, then talk of releasing games should only be done within the 0th bit forum and nowhere else. What casued this was the original thread in General gaming where a fundraiser was mentioned, then it moved to the 0th bit. What happened was the other guy thought we abandoned the project since he couldn't see us in the hidden forum, so he started his own. Keeping all talk of releases to the 0th bit would eliminate this sort of thing.
I think when a member wants to release a game they must go through a proccess which would involve: 1. informing members that they have game(s) 2. Stating they would like to release game(s) 3. Seek approval from kev to allow release 4. Discuss how they will release game(s) and any members willing to host can offer. thats kind of what i'd like to see becuase then if we had multiple people wanting to release games we could then be able to know the status of each game wether its getting realesed or not.
I feel that if we're not careful, we'll be up to our ears in 500 different versions of the same game - and I think it gets a touch tricky when you've got games being re-released all the time. Whilst we should all understand there is some illegality to sharing protos, there is potentially bigger problems with IP and near-complete protos that get a later re-release. When Xtreme was released, the downloadable cover-art contained the Assembler logo - and if that falls into the hands of Sega's legal department, the entire board could be screwed. I think that we have to understand that some people are watching us - so I vote for stricter regulations before uploading IMO.
easy to see the point. but here the choice becomes between getting something or not getting anything... the original proto surely loses value when dumped, but still it'll never drop to zero. what about thinking about "price" caps for all unreleased? Or even better, after that the owner gets the asked price, the most generous donor will get the "phisical" item? this could be a nice idea, as long as the amount donated by each people is kept hidden. karsten PS: by the way, kev you have PM! please answer.
Wasn't the whole idea behind this to do FREE releases? Sure it started out with a fundraiser, but that was because the game (Sonic Xtreme) was such a high profile title. Kevin has said on several occassions that he didn't set this up to be a marketplace for people to cash in on their dumps. Obviously some titles may warrant it, and obviously this sort of thing is up to the owner. If you want to release something, your first thought shouldn't be "fundraiser" or "community payment" If more people release things freely, it will inspire others to do the same (in theory) as a way of giving back to what they have gotten for free.
I think quite a few of (us) are releasing stuff free. But at the same time, there are games that have a certain worth to them, and itd be a shame for the owner not to get something
Wait a minute though, in the case of Nightmare Busters, we (the board) suggested the release to him (the holder of the proto,) not the other way around. So it's not like he just came looking to pawn his proto off on us. Just so we're all straight on that. And actually, it was me who suggested we hold a fundraiser for it. So in the future if this isn't a good idea then thats up to Assembler and you guys, but as for this particular case I don't see how anything went wrong. It would be a good idea though to have some sort of process involving any future release, considering the potential for something turning into a fiasco.
For freebies, no. But then again for freebies the releasor doesn't need the 0th bit per se, although its nice to see them here of course. For payers, then yes. I think we need a proper set of rules as the potential is there is for people to get their shit for free, or even make money. How do we really know what X person paid for Y item? I mean who's to say someone couldn't go and get a shit load of bust debug consoles on the cheap, find them loaded with unrelased stuff, then charge 'proto' prices to release it? (That last para is a joke btw P&DD, albeit with a serious point in general)
To be clear - I don't think anything went wrong with the Nightmare Busters fundraiser (aside from a small miscommunication, not a big deal). I also was aware that we asked him, not vice versa - And I think that's all well and good. My response was mainly in regards to the question posed - which seems to be basing it on fundraising, not just releases. My point was that we should not clamp down on releases because they were intended to be free. We should act with caution and leave it up to the group if/when something might be worth paying for. I just dont want people to think that we've paid for 2 things, so expect something for every release you plan to offer. So, if you have something you'd like to release to the community, go for it (barring blatent piracy of course and with proper approvals). If you have something you want to be paid for it's release well... act with caution.
No, any member with 0th bit access should be able to release a game Once in a blue moon? Too long Once a month? Too many Somewhere in the middle is fine. Anyone should be able to release, assuming there is sufficient interest (to fund it) or they are offering it without charge. Obviously fundraisers should be rare exceptions. I would prefer the releases to be as less melodramatic as possible though!
I see the point about needing to be carefull with releases. For example, if the people who hold builds of Emergency Mayhem were to release those builds, there is a good chance that whoever is working on the Wii version of the game will get pissed off and want to take legal action (which could then harm the entire forum)
I've collected Debut titles for a while now and if you've ever been into collecting them then you'll know that it is extremely time consuming and can be expensive. Look at some of the material that exchanges hands here on AG, or on eBay. There are rare titles that regularly go for prices well in excess of hardware! There is a real risk in purchasing such material, that if you don't source it from someone reputable, well known or in the industry in some way that you'll end up with rubbish data on your hands. I'm not going to mention any names (to save blushes) but I was offered a debug in exchange for a PS2 Tool a while ago. It turned out to be one that had already been released, not only that, but I had it in my attic where it had languished for over a year! I've lost count of the times people have offered me material, which they have described as a 'cherished' or 'rare' build of a particular title only to do a bit of background research and discover they got it free from someone I know, or that it's a freely available build. It's a labour of love obtaining this kind of stuff and in some instances well worth the effort. On the whole I agree that people shouldn't be profiting from material that in actual fact they shouldn't actually claim ownership of, but once in a blue moon something of great interest to the community will come along and I don't think that comments about 'people trying to profit from their finds' will encourage people to offer their debug titles or even discuss them openly. I agree that there should be rules. Perhaps a limit, but who sets them? If it's the site owner than clearly we all have to adhere to those rules, but both Diddydonn and I asked for input in relation to the debug titles we had obtained and got a lot of positive feedback. We also asked for permission to proceed with a fundraiser, which as one was already in place, we decided to postpone and eventually placed on hold. Personally I feel that Diddydonn and I had a number of options available to us: 1) Sit on the material and enjoy it for ourselves 2) Sell the Debugs & debug titles outright to a purchaser who may sit on the material, or may release it free (unlikely) or who may start firing out copies of the software on eBay (has happened before) 3) Sell purely the data with the same risks as above 4) Trade the data with the same risks as above 5) Discuss with the Xbox community a release for free 6) Discuss with the Xbox community a release with a fundraiser We felt that the debugs were of significant interest and as such instead of keeping it to ourselves we sought advice. A reputable 3rd party gave us a value, which was actually placed at roughly $700 per debug, which I have NO idea about! I find it impossible to place any value on this sort of thing so would neither comment on whether that was too high or not. I am sure there are members who have more experiences who'd like to make their own judgement! However, in speaking with our resident Xbox guru, OE I quickly became aware that frankly the unreleased Acclaim titles were of significant interest and potential value to those with a particular interest. Whether that be a limited market or not is also open to debate. Both Didds and I decided to put something back into the community for free, which was the 'Turok' release. We are grateful to Borman for dealing with the hosting and release of said title. The fact that people expect things for free and or moan that not enough is being offered, done or setup for them really frustrates me. We opened the thread up to debate and several members offered immediate support and even the promise of donations. We've not taken a penny and in fact we have done our best to ensure that things move forward in a positive way. Back biting, moaning, bitching and sour grapes do NOT help the cause of any rare, hard to find, unreleased material being offered up. Here's the rub. You buy (at your own risk) several Debug Kits, take the time to repair them and discover that they contain hard to find / unreleased / unseen debug titles. What do you do? Do you immediately offer them to the community for free in an act of incredible generosity, seek advice (as we did) or simply keep it to yourself and sit smug in the knowledge that you have something others want / would like access to? If you are subsequently told (and confirm several times over now) that those titles have a relatively high value (whatever it might be) then perhaps you are entitled to not only get a return on the risk, the repairs and your luck! Before anyone says ANYTHING about that, you should also know that the moment we knew what we had on our hands we offered it back to DM7_Demon completely free of charge as we felt that he had missed out on an opportunity to make some money! I don't think that the contributions made by Diddydonn or myself could be regarded as 'insignificant' and in fact I took a £250 risk in producing the Tool assembly guide to ensure that future / current AG members who own Tool units can repair them rather than sit looking at a large, expensive paperweight. We both take part in regular discussions with members to help them sort out hardware issues. What you really need to ensure is that 0th bit members are indeed properly vetted, long term members of AG and therefore have contributed sufficiently so that if they approach the boards with a potential release that you can be sure that you are not being ripped off. Offers should be vetted, checked out properly and handled with tact. Frankly, you'd be amazed at the time and effort into making sure a release can happen. We'd also like to mention for instance that PeekB (who has many years experience with development software) was able to check through the data we supplied and offer his professional opinion on whether the 4th hard drive, which was badly damaged and took hours to unpick, contained anything of value. In all honesty, I think I speak for Andy as well when I say that we are a bit disappointed and surprised by this process. This isn't a thread about us per se, but it is a moan about people trying to make something from material they own, and as others have done so, continue to do so or have ripped members off in less than fantastic deals I think the AG releases offer a good alternative. You know that several people have checked the authenticity, viewed the material and have confirmed it is genuine for example! When you get acts of generosity, whereby material is offered for free then that should be accepted with gratitude rather than expecting more of the same! If you want a FREE releases thread, then one should be set up and that should become the norm. I'm not particularly sure how anyone would be able to value one release over another purely on the basis of their own particular point-of-view or tastes. It should be a blanket rule for all releases and not a mish-mash of one rule here, another there. Rules NEED to be established asap as to precisely what material AG and it's members feel worthy of putting their hands in their pockets for and what they'd gladly offer freely. No members need to offer anything for free and setting it in stone as a rule will only result in fewer and fewer releases in my opinion. Not everyone is charitable enough for that and those who are tend to end up being expected to put hand in pocket time and time again! Andy might make comments for himself, but I again think he and I were agreed that the only way this material of ours would be released free of charge is if it were a case of 'You show me yours, I'll show you mine!' ...and I am not talking about the raft of freely available material we already have access too lol! Sorry for the length of this posting! I am not taking this personally, but this really is the debate we wanted to open up by throwing our thread to the open floor and I for one am glad it is occurring! Long overdue!
(Not taking it personally? Yet personalising most of your post! That's like saying 'I'm no racist, I just hate blacks') Great post though nonetheless. Although for me it raises another issue, several in fact. You talk about undue pressure, but a you show me yours I'll show you mine attitude is pressure galore. I think a problem here, not specifically your acclaim stuff, but in general terms, boils down to what people actually value themselves, and then trying to ascribe that same value to all and sundry. Not everyone rates items the same. I'd pay big for certian items most would baulk at. I'd pay nothing for many things people would get hard over. I do take big issue with this though.. If you are subsequently told (and confirm several times over now) that those titles have a relatively high value (whatever it might be) then perhaps you are entitled to not only get a return on the risk, the repairs and your luck! Before anyone says ANYTHING about that, you should also know that the moment we knew what we had on our hands we offered it back to DM7_Demon completely free of charge as we felt that he had missed out on an opportunity to make some money! IMO if you want to get a return on risk, repairs and luck, you sell the items outright for a profit to an interested party. You don't make money, as well as garner the kudos, by a community release/fundraiser, ie getting the community to compensate you for your risk, time and luck. You think others don't do the same, risk their cash, time etc. Making cash off the community under the guise of doing it for the community, is frankly very 2 faced indeed. I think/hope that was one thing the original poster was concerned about.
