Imho, every AG and 0th Bit member should be able to release a game, but always under some strict rules about how to do the release, when, or if the title in question could jeopardize the board and especially if the owner requires money to compensate for the loss of value of said game. The 0th Bit forum philosophy, as i understood it, was to release games donated by the users for free, but that’s a utopia, as I think it difficult for someone to release for free something that has cost him some hard earned money and effort. I do believe we’d be wrong if we closed the 0th Bit doors to the fundraiser system, as this seems the only way to get some interesting and difficult to obtain titles, but always following some rules because if not we could make all those people who try to scam buyers on eBay and message boards come here and try to make profit from the community. In those cases where a compensation is needed it could be interesting to set some standards like requiring the intervention of ASSEMbler or a mod as a supervisor, asking for info to some board member with knowledge about the title or requiring some proof like footage of the game (if the owner doesn’t want that proof to be made public it should at least be shown to the current supervisor) to ensure it’s worth the community’s effort. It’d be important to limit all negotiation and discusion about releases to the 0th Bit forum to avoid misunderstandings that lead to mistrust. As a fundraiser is in essence a commercial relationship, it should be regulated just like the marketplace (even more, as we usually talk of more money involved).
Unbelievable! Yes, most of the post was personalized as I am speaking from my own experience, but I don't think it is unique to Diddydonn and myself. I also don't think the analogy regarding racism is remotely similar. I also can't see how the 'Here's our material, but we'll only release is on the understanding that we aren't the only ones to do so' is anything other than a commitment to trying to open up the community? I am not saying anything remotely pressured. If people are not interested, then we just shelf it. Period. As for the other comments then that is a little unfair all things considered and frankly I am getting to the point where I would just walk away from dealing with any kind of release under these rather odd circumstances. I'd rather we'd not been granted permission than discover negative comments in the 0th bit about it. I can be PM'd, I can read, I have an email address and we also asked for input. If we are getting this backlash, other people would too. Weird! It would have been far easier for Didd's and I to simply trade the material 'Off Radar' and be damned! As for the seeking 'Kudos' aspect, then I am afraid you really are barking up entirely the wrong tree and just goes to prove how little this issues is understood. I don't do anything to seek Kudos in this or other community forum. My whole thing is about opening the community up, generate information, details and access to material. I do however put a bit of effort in therefore I had hoped that this would prove I am not 'profiteering', however sadly it looks as if I was incorrect. It's not 2 faced in the slightest! The release of 'Sonic Xtreme' for example was a great thing for the Sonic / Sega community, what did it matter a fundraiser was involved at that point? Nobody questioned that? Others have put forward proposals and a fund raiser is actually on going. What is so unrealistic and unfair about it? My own personal intention (can't speak for Didd's on this) was to offer up some of the fundraiser to put back into keeping the site going! I've kind of made a home for myself on this board and I don't expect everything for free, it's a personal choice. A percentage towards site up-keep would keep AG going and benefit all members. I'm a bit tired of having to justify myself & explain my intentions. This is what happens when great ideas (releasing material) get over shadowed by people unhappy with the way things work. That's why you have rules and / or guidelines. We upheld those guidelines and asked permission and got that permission. If there is a backlash against people actually stepping forward with similar intentions then it can only point to the possibility that the intentions of the original release idea was misunderstood and / or the guidelines are not clear enough. I can see now why a lot of people don't bother!
You seem to have misread/misunderstood a lot of the meaning of my post. Of course. Not racism per se lol. I wasn't saying you're racist, grief. But the idea lol. Saying you won't do something while actually doing it. Read what i write, not you you want to see. How can it not be applying pressure? That might not be your intention, I never said it was, you just assumed I did. Yes it can open up the community. But at a price, with a condition etc. Playground stuff imo. (Similarly it seems a little odd to me..you know people here release stuff anyway, so...?) Not everyone here has stuff to offer up anyway. Why should they be made to feel bad as a result? What's unfair about me expressing my view? Do I jump on your back whenever you write something I dislike? What? Should the sun shine out of your arse because you have a few unrelased games you may release? Seems there's always a real palaver here when it comes to this sort of stuff. As for negative comments, people can say whatever they feel. Be damned? Why would people damn you for selling your items? Gouging the community, yes that would be bad imo. Gouging in a private deal, go for it. You really seem to have misunderstood me here. You were talking in general terms, but of course basing that on your experiences. I therefore responded to what you wrote, but I was replying in general terms. You were essentially saying you could see an argument for being compensated by a community release for risk, time, luck etc, in general terms, using this Acclaim stuff as an example of that. I replied, using the acclaim example, to make my general point that I disagree. This thread isn't a Parris/Acclaim thread. I'm not talking about you and you alone. Stop taking everything so damn personally. Again see my comments above. Again you're reading what you want to see, not what I'm writing. Neither the SE of the NB dumps made the owners MORE money than they spent to acquire said items. My issue, not directed at you, but in GENERAL terms, would be where people make money extra from community dumps, over and above what they paid initially. The bit I quoted, yes it was a personal quote from you, but like you used in a general sense, and one which seemed to say that your general opinion on the matter was that you wouldn't have a problem with people making a bit extra. I disagree, simple. Well that's most decent of you, but a tad irrelevant to the discussion here. Anyway... But that's the whole point. The rules here need to be tightened, firmed up, set in stone for all to see. Other places manage dumps with ease, and when it works here its great. But as this very thread proves there can be way too much emotion, assumption and confusion, none of which helps. So to sum up... Chill out mate. seriously. I wasn't having a personal dig, so don't take it that. So we disagree on shit. That's a good thing imo, don't be sad if people don't tow the Parris line 100%. (And if you take further umbrage with anything I've written then let's take it to pms please. This thread was a general question to the members here, not some personal anti-parris crusade as you think. Hell, the way you're going on you'd think you'd found the only protos in existence! (J/K)
OK, heres my take on things so far Wheela, i seriously dont know what your f*cking problem is, this is been blown completly out of proportion. So what that me and Parris stumbled upon the games by chance, im pretty sure that most unreleased games / protos are found this way, but it still doesnt stop people from selling them on for obscene amounts! Its never been said publicy what we were going to offer these for, and various figures have been floating about but this is pure speculation, we have asked from the start on peoples opinions on what to do with the stuff we have. and from the beginning people have expressed a interest in a fund raiser type thing, and myself and Parris have been messaged by many people offering up money to release the games I would like to say not one penny has changed hands when it comes to the games, not any underhand deals etc. What pisses me off the most about all this is people keep talking about profiteering etc, i would love to find one person on this forum, who hand on heart can honestly say that they have never sold anything or done anything in their lives for profit, so what (and im not just talking about the debugs i have at the moment here) if someone wants to make something back on their investment, is that so wrong? Parris has played a relatively small part in this, i have done all the work cleaning the debugs up, getting them up and running, spent money out of my own pocket to recover the data from one of the drives, used my own parts, materials and many hours messing with the debug units to get them working again, so is it so wrong that i would like something back for all the work i have put in? and im not even talking money here, it could be anything really, am i really that selfish that i want to make a return on all this? At the end of the day if people want to donate for a release who am i to argue with that? I have already offered up the turok debug, without asking for anything from anyone for it, i did it simply out of respect to give something back to the forum, so will i gt flack for that as well? I realise most of this rant does not make much sense, and im more than prepared for any repercussions from it, be it flamed at etc. i can take it I just wanted to get my thoughts across on this, and if anyone wants to slag me off for it then then so be it, i really dont give a flying f*ck, i have broad shoulder, and i can simply walk away from my PC and carry on with my life
Looks at comments re 'Don't take this personally....sun shining out your arse.....towing the Parris line....calm down' and looks at plasterboard needing to be put up in kitchen. Life is too sodding short for this and I really have other things to be doing. Argue among yourselves!
I only chose the second option as we should establish some sort of guideline as to how releases would be handled.
Well, that's why these fundraisers are strictly voluntary, so if something doesn't intrest you then you're not obliged to contribute for it. Of course that means you don't get first crack at it when it's released either. For sure, people need to be compensated for thier material and whatever time they put into a release, no doubt. That's why I think it would be a good idea to only talk about releases and fundraisers at all in the 0th bit forum, so that not only will that avoid certian mishaps, but also keep only serious people involved. That should probably be rule #1 from now on, to only talk about releases or fundraisers in the 0th bit.
Parris, this thread actually came to light ENTIRELY from the Nightmare Busters release. Nothing intended against you and diddydonn, if you look in your threads I think you'll find that I thanked you for all your efforts. This is mostly about Having better guidelines or regulations on releasing games Trying to clamp down on people just trying to make a fast buck out of something they have (as ASSEMbler and wheelaa said) What you're doing is devoting many hours to collating and repairing hardware to retrieve the data it contains. That, in itself, is far more worthy than buying a prototype cartridge, whacking it in a WildCard and selling the ROM for virtually what you paid for the cart. You could say that buying and selling a physical game is easier, as you paid a certain amount for that game knowing you had it. All you'd have to do is work out how much you'd be willing to lose on releasing it. Whilst this is on the surface a good deed, people are doing this for profit, not for helping out the community. Legit used to buy protos and sell copies for half what he paid. Was his prototype worth half of what he paid for it afterwards? Maybe, maybe not. It was a gamble. If he could find a buyer that would pay that, great. If not, well he did it for the community. Of course, in some cases, it is that person's word against ours as to what they paid for the prototype! Giving to the community is not about saying - well, I paid $500 for this, give me $450 and you can have copies (and I'll still have a cart that's easily worth $50). Personally, I don't want to see too many instances of that here, unless they are of great interest. However, if you have made some sort of sacrifice, then that really is giving to the community. Legit made sacrifices for the community (and probably ended up losing money in the process). Parris and diddydonn have put a great deal of time, money and effort into their project, and have been going through the proper channels - again a great sacrifice. Parris, I see you as a good, long-term member of the community, you've given a lot and I would welcome your paid-for releases, and support them. You've done everything by the book. I am, however, concerned when ASSEMbler says no to an officially sanctioned release, but the forum is still used. OK, things seem to have gone smoothly so far, although we can't say that until everyone has the ROM! Personally, I found the organization of the whole event rather poor (no offense to those involved). As I saw it, simon_belmont posted saying he had an unreleased game. There was interest, he stated he will not rip it. It was suggested he rip it for his own backup anyway. Suddenly, we're talking about a fundraiser. Kev doesn't want to do it through the official channel as per sonic. Others continue to make it happen - ask for people to donate as the more there are, the cheaper it is per head. All of a sudden, the PayPal is open and we're being advised to donate something like $35 (a lot for a ROM), but whatever you want basically. Due to a missight (and a non 0th bit member being told about the game and donating), the owner is overpaid. Yes, he is an honest guy and promises to refund the excess, but it could have gone bad. One of the biggest concerns to me is that someone was told about it outside of here. OK, he asked to help by ripping it. I suggest that, in future, all discussions be kept to here. Any help with ripping etc. be kept to 0th bit members. If you talk to others, they may talk. News travels - FAST. We don't want another Prop Arena case on our hands. What would happen then? People start registering and posting about the rumour that we're releasing a game. Other current members who don't have access to 0th bit start asking questions, too. Chaos! I would propose something along the following lines: The game's existence is brought to light IN 0TH BIT The owner requests release permission, stating original price paid and asking price If this is granted, a 'treasurer' is appointed (perhaps Kev or a mod) who will handle payments and (hopefully!) has the file to be released A period is set (e.g. 2 weeks) for interested parties to come forward, and a minimum head-count target is set (e.g. "$600 needed, min. 10 donaters) During this period, we all pledge to donate, and a tally is kept in the initial post so we know what the price-per-head is After the pledging period, we all send payment, and once this is complete, the file is sent out to those who donated Going back to you, Parris, I would agree that you have a tricky situation. How do you value content found on a debug? Do you aim to get back what you paid for the machine, or a proportion thereof? Do you think about what any content may sell for? (a little on the greedy side, but I can see why people would) I think you have done the right thing in opening it to the community and asking opinions, really. Anyway, I see yours as a completely different situation, as it is sanctioned for one! I'd like to see all such releases being sanctioned in future, personally.
Thanks Retro, I couldn't have put it better myself! In essence (although it got lost somehow) you have stated precisely what I was trying to say and I appreciate your clarity. Sometimes it takes one or two bust-ups to come up with a working solution and example of when a good idea has a flaw (or two). We (Didds and I) saw issues with the current "release" and I for one have wondered how many fund raisers a small community can sustain before someone says 'ffs, I ain't paying anymore!' I realized this thread wasn't about the Acclaim material 'Per Se', but I was concerned by the allegation that people were simply using AG member fundraisers as a means of paying for material they wanted. We should acknowledge that irrespective of how material is retrieved it can still have a value and I welcome(d) (as I continue to question) the value of such material, but we should also ensure that nobody is expected to pay through the nose for material that is clearly of little value or of such niche interest that a small number of people are expected to carry the load. A lot of the material available to the gaming community is only out there because some development company forgot to remove a disc, wipe a drive or vacate a ROM from some board. The point I was attempting to make, you have eloquently detailed so I shall refrain from repeating it. Whatever people 'thought' I was trying to say, I am not sure, and I got past caring when I could see it was descending towards a level I wouldn't respond at. I could see a particular point-of-view and even took some of it on-board. It just got a little too personal for me and I was very, very tired yesterday. Lets just say the week prior to me posting I'd probably averaged 2 hours sleep per night, so if what I was saying wasn't terribly clear then I apologize. (I've adopted American spelling to avoid those little red line). From the conversations I have had with Didds, I can tell he's had a pretty shitty week too, so I think we both just got rubbed up the wrong way! I have agreed completely with most of the comments posted here thus far and I didn't think this was about us, nor did I mean to turn it into a 'Parris / Didds / Acclaim' thread. I felt most (if not all) of my comments could be attached to anyone going through the process of a release. As this is my first one, I only have my own experiences to draw from. I'll bow out now, I really am in the middle of some pretty major DIY stuff!
I won't deal with the morals. Any rules have to address the realities of the subject, eg what happens if an item is half-funded but runs out of funders or interested members? Since it is people's money, and not just a single persons, the issues become complex and you might even be stepping in actual, real-world law, say for example, when someone decides he's unhappy and wants to bring action for his money. This example is extreme, but remains a possibility. Hence, any rules need to reflect and deflect responsibility and someone therefore needs to be accountable in every transaction. Remember: as soon as someone drops a penny, he can have a saying, and that can be a lot of voices to be heard. In my view, to determine if a title should/could be funded or not, there should be a practical approach. This can have the form of a low fixed down-payment by interested parties into a common pool, in order to show their commitment and intent, followed by an evalution of whether there are enough "real" interested members to fund a Processing. If the Processing fails, everyone gets back that small amount, or can choose to have it credited for a later release. Obviously, this systematical approach needs to be centralized and has an accounting aspect to it. From that point on, all sorts of responsibilities come to mind. Bottom line: You must either do is the safe and just way, or not do it all. Crippled and un-syncronized attempts that risk other people's money and cause stress and frustration should not be in such a process, especially considering we re all in this for fun. Remember, our interests are subjective and untangible, but money is very real and proper steps must be taken in realizing a proper accounting system that works in an appropriate manner. A foreseeable system that one can choose to contribute to will promote certainty and interest in the subject. Any failed attempts will only make this seem more of a bad idea.
I agree that this area of the forum should be vetted more and not solely based on the age of a created account. That is a positive move, going forward.
I think there should be some marketpalce-alike rules, to avoid people being scammed. Like to nominate a "Fundraiser moderator" which would deal with the people money and give them back if the fundraiser fail or if there's any other problem with the fundraiser. Establishing wise, logic, and generally accepted rules for fundraiser would be a + in safety and trustability. When money is in cause, ther should be rules. Other thanh that I completely agree with fundraiser and free releases. Hey, if you're the only one on earth with a 1000$ worth proto, we can't be mad at you because you don't want to GIVE it to everybody ! Have a nice day !
These here sound good to me. The only problem I see with setting up a general pool is, quite frankly, not many people are going to donate to it, and some people may not want to use thier portion for a particular proto. Seems much better to hold organized fundraisers, even though they can get wacky imo.
my idea: make a sticky in the Rare and Obscure Video Gaming and Unreleased Games forums stating that: "If anyone is wishing to share or release something to the community, BE IT PAID OR NOT, _MUST_: 1) Keep silence by not winding the chance of a release around. 2) Contact a MOD showing his interest in the release. the mod will notice the 0th bit community only. 3a) giving reasonable proof of being in posses of the game. the proofs will later be shown by the mod to the 0th bit community. 3b)stating a sure price. 3c) Keeping silence and BEING ANONYMOUS UNTIL THE GAME IS RELEASED 4) waiting for the money collection. starting to collect from other places is forbidden. 5) money will be sent to the proto's owner only after the collection is concluded, and in "one shot" 6) If the owner is not a well know and respected member or has no references, might be aked to send the item IN ADVANCE to one of the experienced members of the board to be properly dumped. what do you guys think about this rules? releases might be slowed down a little, but it'll be safer for both the seller and the forum... karsten
i agree with you karsten. It should be done like this; however if (that sometimes happen) the owner want to release it for free, a simple contact with an MP should be enough (i, for my part, got a beta version of flatout to release that i never had time to dump... studies studies...)
Parris: Indeed, I worry that there could be a flood of such releases, hence a clearer vetting. As things stand, it's nice. Sonic came out, then it went quiet, then your xbox finds came to light... a nice amount of time between quality releases. I'd hate to see the board turn into in effect a dodgy war3z-type board for funding new ROMz for t3h kiddi3z!!!! ;-) Barc0de: Yeah, that's why I suggested maybe having the pledging period beforehand... at least we'd know that there's a certain amount of people prepared to split the cost. Of course, people could still back out despite pledging, hence the minimum required idea (e.g. $500 required, min. 10 people - they then know before pledging that they're pledging to donate up to $50, but hopefully less). Hawanja: Yeah, I meant a dedicated person to deal with receiving payment for each individual release, much like happened in this last case
when I say minimum requirment I mean something as a nomimal price, eg 5-10 USD, so as to see who is "serious" about giving money and who isn't for a given Processing. This can help weed out people who are on the rocking boat and give a clear picture of who is willing to invest in the idea. Also, to avoid profit making, I think there should be a cap limit, something like 4/5ths of the declared price. Now many software owners will not agree with this,but hey,since they re keeping the original it's not like it holds no value at all - just think how an original Radiant Silvergun still goes for much more money than a mere copy. Once again, please be very aware of the dangers of having other people's money. Many trust each other in here, but there's always a slim chance for a bad apple, and rules are made to cover every imaginable possibility so as to avoid regrets. Dealing with real money can and may have real legal recourse. No one wants that, so whoever is taking responsibility must be able to show that he has taken reasonable and foreseeable steps in the form of proper accounts etc. I vouch for stringent rules regarding the regulation of any funds, no matter how little. I m dead against people getting scammed.
Agreeing with "We need some stricter one size fits all rules" to help protect both beta donars and donators from anything whether foul play was intended or not. Each case can still have it's own little specifics (and probably will) but a cautious and protective process for potential releases should be established.
