The Baffling case of the Mac User

Yeah, but did Microsoft ever release (codename) "Monaco" as I have never heard of anyone actually using it? I remember about 3 or 4 years ago a big fanfare, then zip!

It was the official MS equivalent of Garageband.

 

I dont think they did.

I just want some software to toss together my stupid near unlistenable rap songs on. Wave studio was greatness for just that

 

You also rap?

 

I'd say it's the other way around - any modern CPU will cope with multitrack providing you've got a halfway decent sound card, but if you're not careful with your VSTs they'll bring any CPU to its knees.

In an age where 1TB drives can be bought for £60 a pop, storage simply isn't an issue with audio. Video is a totally different story.

Not my cup of tea either, though I know several people who swear by it.

Have you tried Renoise? It's a modern take on a tracker, and it's very cheap, intuitive and easy to use.

Audacity is great for what it is, agreed.

 

very very little my last project was in 2003

 

Not really with MIDI outboard, which is really what I was meaning, but agreed with on-board stuff, which I love, but prefer to use hardware such as external sound canvas or something like a Korg Trinity. Should have really said MIDI sequencing.

Yeah, I suppose, I was really meaning to remember not to leave yourself short. For example I've ended up with 2 1TB external HDD next to my iMac purely because I gave the iMacs internal HDD less thought than I should have. That's one area where a PC is better, open up and pop and extra in - 10 min job! I am never opening this iMac up lol

No, I should have a look.

I love it, and use it all the time.

 

Audacity: Best for quick work
Reaper: Awesome free multi-track recorder (pay to register, but that just gets rid of the initial splash screen.)
Reason: Amazing softsynth, fun to program and made to be as close to working with real hardware (when it comes to programming, etc) as possible. Unfortunately I find that stuff has the tendency to sound very... "Reason-ey" when I work with it. Still love it, however, but I wouldn't use it alone.
Ableton Live: Kickass. Set up pretty well, though it does so much that it's probably hard to make a perfect interface. Set up for easy performances, which makes it fun and interesting to do actual composition on.
Cubase: Hell yes. Steinberg makes Cubase, Steinberg made VSTs. Any questions?
Cakewalk Sonar: I use this as my multi-track. It's good. I don't know if it's the best or the worst, but I'm very familiar with it so there's no reason to switch.

 

That's a fair call, you don't want to be using USB drives for any kind of production work if you can avoid it. I'm a little leery of USB soundcards, too, though with some laptops you don't get any other choice, and to be fair my mate's Edirol seems like a fantastic bit of kit.

 

<3 Mac Pro

 

Love my iMac, but when I went to pick it up I only had 2 choices and I wished upon reflection that I'd spent a little bit more money on it. I did however save myself a pile of cash buying the memory from Crucial rather than Apple. Sometimes their price policies leave a lot to be desired.

I still use a PC from time to time running XP primarily because I am more familiar with how Windows XP operates and from time to time I just prefer Windows. My eldest daughter and son have computers running Vista and I hate it.

No doubt if I spent more time getting used to it, I would hate it even more lol

One of the things I can't get used to going back to a PC is the fact that on here I have a far nicer view of any web page I visit.

But I hated the mouse and use an MS compact optical mouse ;-)

 

Memory is almost always cheaper by not buying from a vendor, any vendor really.

The MagicMouse is suppose to be pretty nice, not going to replace a multibutton mouse but still.

 

Alright, I think most people here know I'm a very PC oriented person, mainly because I'm into customization, overclocking, and modding. So, I'm stating my bias up front and with that being said, take these following points however you will.

For starters, Mac's are generally made with good hardware. I have nothing against Mac's, it's mainly the majority of their user base who are entirely idiotic when it comes to anything tech related (yet think they are very tech savvy) and preach about how PC's are useless pieces of junk and how their Mac's never fail. With that being said, there are a good deal of Mac users who are quite Tech savvy, but sadly these level-minded folks are clearly outnumbered.

I laid out a decent description of what a Mac really is (a limited PC platform with candy wrapped Unix) here:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382265&postcount=22

Mac's are great for people who don't mind limitations, both in hardware and software. For those of you who say emulators remedy this, sometimes yes... but emulation isn't perfect. Oh, and upgrading a Mac is nowhere near as easy as upgrading a PC, and while you might be able to game on a Mac, forget about trying to do it at super high resolutions (I'm talking about 2560 x 1600 and beyond with Eyefinity). The sophisticated multi GPU setups and highly overclocked CPU's needed to game at that level are usually not found in any kind of Mac, and the majority of Mac users probably don't even know what overclocking means.

Calling a MacPro a great value is kind of like saying smashing your face into a concrete wall is a great idea. Take the $2K you would spend on a Mac Pro (or however much they cost these days), buy premium components, and you've got yourself a PC more powerful and just as or more stable than the Mac Pro. A word on warranties, each component you buy has a warranty. XFX, a premier GPU manufacturer, offers a double-lifetime warranty. That means not only do you get a lifetime warranty, but so does the person you sell it to. Does Apple offer anything nearly as good as that? Simply put, if you are competent enough to design and build a decent computer, you should be competent enough to know how do deal with a component that goes bad. So, I guess the only reason to get the Mac Pro is if you don't want to hack OS X onto a PC.

That is not entirely true. The WHQL certification by Microsoft is very stringent, and hardware that passes can be run by Windows without problems. In case you missed it, this is a quote from the previous "Mac v PC" thread:

"I'm probably running one of the most exotic setups on this forum (nForce chipset, SLI'd GPU's, Core 2 CPU and DDR3 RAM). The only time I had trouble with Vista, it was entirely my fault (I got a couple BSOD's while overclocking, which means I wasn't getting enough voltage somewhere in my system)"

BTW, I got my system entirely stable as proven by 12 hours of Prime Blend, 12 Hours of Prime Small FFT, 20 passes of IBT, and 1000% coverage from HCI memtest. I did all these tests one after the other, no breaks, no restarts, no problems. Oh, and this was with a Core 2 Duo that was OC'd from 3.0GHz to 4.0GHz... If that's not stable, I don't know what is. If you feel confident your Mac can withstand that kind of stress, then by all means go ahead and give it a shot. Oh, I hope you have some good cooling methods on your CPU, because IBT raises temps 20+ degrees above idle.

This post did contain images of my test results:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=339938&postcount=11

but the links were broken. I'm away from home right now, but when I get back I'll dig out the pictures that show the results from the stress tests.

Anyway, my point is that even super exotic setups being pushed to their limits, like the one I was running then, can be perfectly stable on Windows. However, don't get in the habit of comparing a $400 Acer with a $2000 Mac, because the deck is stacked in favor of the Mac. Cheap hardware usually yields instability and most of the time Blue Screens can be attributed to hardware instability (specifically RAM), not the OS. If the OS is getting corrupt data, it's going to fail, regardless of the OS. Oh, and keeping a PC clean and stable is nowhere near as hard as you make it out to be. Sure, if you've got a cheap ass PC, it is... but whose fault is that?

Ah, finally a point about looks. Show me a Mac as varied in design and beautiful as these PC's:

http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/systems-2008/lian-li/mcp/lian-li-pc7se3-mcp.htm

http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/systems-2009/murderbox/009/murderbox.htm

http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/systems-2008/mdpc/mdpc-black-copper.htm

http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/systems-2009/lian-li/a05-xien16/033.htm

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423938&page=7 (scroll down)

and I'll say you are correct... however, the issue is quite subjective. I don't think the Mac community at large is really big on modding and customization. My point is, with a PC the box is only as ugly as you make it. Again, if you're buying a cheap ass $400 Acer, don't expect aesthetics.

Whew, ok I'm done

 

Oooo go one here is my 2 pennys worth...

Moved away from Windows -

1 Crashes more times then a blind man driving a bus thro a contra flow system.
2 Ever increasing need to upgrade.
3 That fucking paperclip.
4 Virus's

Final nail was after an update it got messed up had to reload everything only now it didnt like my product code and I told to buy a new one!!

Moved to Linux and loved it, once you get to grips with it that is. I have shiny desktop and all fancy gadgets on it. No bullshit with it it doesn't force you to any program just look up what you need and you cant find it. Even got my 901 eeepc looking far better then any Xp desktop i had in the past. Needed to use wine for an XP programme I needed (Collectorz) but its all good.


Then came the sticking point.... My new iphone. Decided to get an MacMini. Yeh it looks nice but its just a fancy *nix os. That really gets to me. But I needed Itunes and to be fair it all does just work. At a cost - over £600 for a top spec Mini. Theres stuff I just cant work out still but I can cope.




My ideal system? Ubuntu with a Linux with a version of itunes (even with wine I cant use it fully yet)

 

That's pretty much all you needed to say lol

The Mac Mod (Hackintosh) community is way smaller than PC mod, but it exists. You must see the OSXBOX...
http://www.macmod.com/ put together by a PC guy who hates Macs.

I don't know whether it helps to make sweeping generalizations about Mac owners, as it appears to me you are assuming they are all Volvo driving, slipper wearing types who are either technical or not.... I didn't really get that bit of your argument.

Look, none of us has the data on how many PC or Mac owners are tech savvy, but given the number of times I've had to help (or other people I know have had to help) friends, family and strangers out with all sorts of computers I think we can safely say that the vast majority of the population are pretty clueless about computers. If they don't switch on, they are broken beyond repair, if something happens on screen it is broken beyond repair, if their sound disappears it's broken beyond repair! I've caught friends buying entire new computers because of one technical issue they couldn't fathom out!

Most people, suffice to say are happy with something that switches on and lets them access their email, social networking sites, Pr0n, do their accounts or whatever.

As for the cases for PC, they aren't really to my taste. I can see why someone would find them attractive, but I don't.

 

Nice way to cherry pick... let's see what else I had to say

"mainly because I'm into customization, overclocking, and modding. So, I'm stating my bias up front and with that being said, take these following points however you will."

I laid my bias out up front, which is way more than some people will do... With that being said, do you think someone who is a diehard Mac fanatic is correct when they say Windows is an unstable OS by default? A lot of Mac users jumped into this thread real quick and I was just trying to level the playing field.

So a guy who hates Mac's does a Mac mod and you're saying this repersents the Mac modding community... :lol:

EDIT: I went back and looked at the site a bit more. The OSXBOX is about the ONLY thing impressive on that site. I admit I like it, but if that's all they got going for them then my original statement stands

Yes, I admit most of this opinion is forged from anecdotal evidence... but you know what they say about first impressions right? This has been my experience with every Mac user I've met in person. There are people on the internet who say they are computer competent, Mac users, and NOT fanboys... but I have yet to meet someone like that in person. I'm not saying they aren't out there, I'm just saying I haven't met one yet. Either way, I really liked what you had to say here:

I agree with this wholeheartedly, yet because today the ease of access to computers, cell phones, and other gadgets most people think that if they can check email and browse the web, they are tech savvy.

 

The Macpro was a good value, its not at all right now And unless i can take a machine to a store and have the part next day, the warrenty is worth it to a student. I would love to build another PC, which is always the best value, its just not always the best choice.

And meet the average PC user and they are no better then a mac user, except they have viruses to be fixed. The difference is marketshare, and whom you talk to. And hello, im a knowledgable person here, I know the limitations of both platforms, how to fix both, done the whole pc building, overclocking thing.

 

Brushed aluminium and the generic window showing lots of dull looking fans with CCL and LED lighting, yawn... Why do PC owners feel the need to show everyone what the inside of their PC looks like? One PC looks just like anyother and no amount of cooling pipes, fans, etc will make it look that more interesting. Ditto small LCD panel showing things like CPU temps, wonderful.. bit like a Fuel Economy meter on a Ferrari... useful but not really going to be used enough for it to be justified.

Apple still haven't enter the netbook market and as it's the fastest growing market it is a bit strange. Yes they are underpowered and limited but my netbook is still much more powerful then the notebook I had 4 years ago and does everything I want it to do including netbrowsing, emails, word processing, programming, running Quark Xpress, watching videos (it will happily display HD video files too), listening to music and being a nice all in one machine with the right number of SD card readers and USB sockets and if I need a bigger display then I can just plug it into a monitor... more importantly it's light and small. Steve Jobs hates them though (maybe it's because he didn't think of it first) saying that he doesn't want to compromise the mac...

 

Yeah, I'm really glad that the era of molded plastic demon/alien aftermarket cases seems to be almost gone... And I can't wait until windows are gone as well. "ALL ALUMINUM SO THAT WHEN I GO TO LANS IT'S EASIER TO CARRY". Want to guess how much that sheet of plexi weighs?
When a friend in High School would have me help him build a computer, they'd get some big ridiculous case and a million fans. Then other people would come over and ask why his computer is so big and loud. "So I can have a lot of hard drives and so it runs cooler." Yeah, well I know what components I installed for you, and all those highspeed 80mm fans are completely pointless. Plus the case sucks, and is ugly. And the LED lights would keep me awake at night.

Lol, that's why Apple doesn't have a netbook?
What about the Macbook Air? That wasn't a compromise?
I suppose if they keep their 12" models then that's pretty damn close, but still isn't a netbook, which I can stick in my backpack and not even notice it's there.

 

I was in the middle of a really long reply, the 'phone rang and whilst on the call my wife clicked "X" or visited Facebook or something - I think that pretty much sums up today to be honest!

Right, Alien my comments tend to be tongue in cheek, which seem to have come across as serious. The OSXBOX is my nod to PCs dominating the market and having an impact that cannot be denied. I thought it was really funny, especially as the guy hated Mac, but did a great job on it. There are many things that Microsoft have done that I love and appreciate (a few irritating things I dislike greatly).

I could have pointed out a few other hacks, but I actually thought (and I was right) that you'd appreciate that one more because of the console aspect (which is predominantly why we all inhabit this cosy little space provided by Kev).

Jamtex pretty much summed up my feelings on the majority of PC hacks and also my opinion of the links you posted earlier. The very same reason I don't like them. I am sure you have heard of the Pompidou centre in Paris? It's a famous modern piece of architecture built mainly from glass & steel. It was revolutionary and had a "guts" out "see everything" approach which at the time, especially in the conservative climate when it was built really blew people away, but was not to everyone's taste. It also led to a lot of cheaper, less well thought out and God awful copy cats. If you decide to do something, put some effort in!

The same with PCs... but a PC with it's guts on display and illuminated like a Supermarket at night is now kind of done to death and some really do look crap, admit it. I am also not all that keen on those brushed metal cases.

I do appreciate a good mod, I think some are ingenious, but most aren't and surely you must concede the point that thousands of people are building boring PCs with exactly the same boring modifications (a clear window / illuminated cooling system and funky colored parts) and making a pretty ham fisted crappy job of it. It really takes an amazing modification with superb results for me to be bothered.

Could it be that PCs were initially seriously in need of modification? Not so many years ago they truly were all beige and looked awful, plus many manufacturers were selecting parts because of price and not performance. I remember when the only choice was beige! Macs by comparison were more attractive & became more colorful imho, plus Apple seemed to put some thought (normally, but not always) into their hardware specs.
Modifications were born on the back of boredom with the lack of imagination & options on offer for PC owners who were growing in number and getting younger as PCs became the dominant unit and cheap enough for kids to have on their bedroom desk. Hence one reason I think that PC modification is more common than Mac. It kind of started with PC, although the first time I heard about over clocking was back in the days of Apple's G3.

On the back of that you also have hundreds of configuration possibilities and options available to you from hundreds of varieties of components as a PC can be easily modified. You have to see it in the wider context. However, that also gives scope for hardware conflicts and problems if you are not familiar with every aspect of the internals of your chosen PC. Get the wrong parts and you could end up with a crap computer. Which, in general does tend to suggest more PC guys are hardware enthusiasts in terms of knowing the spec etc, but that is just anecdotal and I have no proof other than the conversations I have had with PC guys tend to be about hardware, whereas the conversations I have with Mac owners & users tends to be about software. That's just my opinion and I am sure others will contradict it.

The only time that differs is that BOTH PC and Mac owners endlessly talk about OS... endlessly!

Something tells me you are more interested in the performance than the overall look of a unit and you have to admit that many, many people really won't be in the same position as you to get the very last iota out of their systems. It's excellent! I appreciate what you have done to your PC, can I just say however that I didn't have to change anything, remove or add (apart from memory sticks) or tinker with my iMac to get a really good unit which has been rock solid, reliable and efficient out of the box. Perhaps one reason fewer Mac owners feel the need to take the lid off their beloved (and yes, I LOVE the designs) is that pretty much from purchase the unit will perform as expected or desired.

When it came to buying the iMac I'm afraid that the price was not a deciding factor otherwise, yes I'd probably have gone and sought a PC friend who is shit hot with computers and got him to build something for less, but I liked the iMac.

I liked it, it works, it does the job and I prefer it to any of the PCs I've thus far owned. However, as a nod and acknowledgment that I cannot have everything I want (oh, well, actually I can!) I have OSX and Win XP running on the iMac as I actually love both OS. Please keep Vista to yourself!

Surely, all this comes down to is choice and PC owners & Mac owners have made a choice and will potentially defend their choice. But as someone who really doesn't care, so long as the bloody thing works, I made a choice to go for an iMac and thus far can't complain. No one is actually saying that PCs aren't good, but I think there is a certain amount of trying to compare Apple units mostly untampered with, still using the same components they shipped with against PCs that have had a serious amount of effort put into them to improve them, or in some instances custom built PCs which is like an architect comparing his home with something built to standard on housing complex. Not entirely level playing fields.

2 years of usage, no blue screen, no virus issues and touch wood, the only really hang up I've had was caused by me.

10 mins of using my daughter's HP (better spec than my iMac) and Vista pulled a sicky and decided to have a duvet day! (That was actually on day one, out of it's box lol - thanks HP!)
:thumbsup:

I've really nothing more to add lol - that's it basically. I haven't attached either a thermometer or run diagnostics to see whether I am getting maximum performance out of anything, I just know I am fighting less with this computer than any I have had previously. Perhaps all 6 of my previous PCs have been shit though as 4 of them were off the shelf Dell units, 1 was Olivetti (Windows 3.1 all the way) and 1 was HP (which was struggling until I took Vista off and put XP on it).

 

Man, you have no clue what you are talking about :lol: You talk about those mods as if they are menial. Do you know how much work it takes to completely sleeve a system? Do you know how much time it takes to construct a good water loop? Do you realize how much work actually goes into routing all those cables? People like you, who generally know nothing about computer modding, look at a system like that and think "oh, another window and led mod" because you simply don't know what you are talking about. But the reason PC modders 'show off' the inside of their PC is because other PC modders understand the time and effort that goes into such a mod, and can truly appreciate it. When you put that much time and effort into the inside of your system, you damn well are going to want to look at it.

You see, I didn't have to overclock and tweak my system to get good performance either. However, I'm the type of person that does that simply because I enjoy it. I love pushing my system to its maximum capabilities.

However, I understand 100% where you are coming from. You make good points. The one thing I have to remember (and I forget this often ) Is that I, and people like me, are quite the minority when it comes to PC users. The average PC user isn't going to know a lick about overclocking, the same way an average Mac user isn't. Also, Alienware PC's are good systems. But would I ever buy one? No, even though it's a PC I think it's way overpriced. But there is a market out there for them. The same with the Mac Pro. Apple uses good hardware in their systems, which is why they have a reputation of 'just working', but that doesn't mean it's for me.

The problem I have is when people compare cheap, Wal-Mart level PC's with a Mac Pro. It's entirely unfair. You can't compare a $400 machine to a $2000 machine. I would never compare a cheap Acer pre-built to my system, even though they are both PC's. My main concern here is to show people that you can have a stable, reliable, hassle-free Windows PC if you know what you are doing.