Virtua Fighter 4 dreamcast ...any info??

Even Panzer Dragoon Zwei had transparancies. For Sprites it's not a problem on the Saturn but for polygons....... That's where the power is needed.

Yakumo

 

You only have to look at the kind of games being produced in 1998 to see that programmers had learned quite a lot since earlier days, with the likes of Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Saga and the Shenmue prototype more than enough to prove that while it was never going to be Model 3 perfect, Virtua Fighter 3 was indeed possible on the Saturn. As for the claim that VF3 never existed, why then has exsegadev confirmed that a final playable build was shown by a Sega representative? In a thread filled with some presumptions, I'm going to hazard a guess that somebody has been neglecting to read every last detail here.

Yes, some of the messages are long (and perhaps boring to those not 100% interested), but to others - such as myself, of course - it is refreshing to know that concrete information about this "holy grail" is finally starting to leak. Now it's only a matter of time before this knowledge gets back to more senior people within Sega and maybe we might actually get to see something from this mythical Saturn conversion, which definitely WAS completed on two separate occasions because documentation listing the dates it was compiled and even rejected by management has been discovered in the past by similarly determined individuals who should also be credited for their failure to back down in the face of such blatant ignorance.

Returning back to one recent subject that has been commented on, I too had no idea that Sega Touring Car was another game - along with Daytona Circuit Edition - that benefitted from further graphical improvements for its Japanese release, although I guess the (allegedly) higher frame rate may also have something to do with the raise in speed NTSC consoles have over their PAL counterparts, even if this is only a 17.5% increase. Also, did you know that all of the textures in the Saturn version of The House Of The Dead were actually placeholders? Once the coders at Tantalus demonstrated their first build to feature all four stages, they were simply told to leave everything as it was, adding just a few extra modes and therefore helping to bring this high profile game's release forward by a few months. Naturally, this was just one more error of judgement from a company becoming increasingly interested in its upcoming system, which can be the only reason executives sat around a table and decided to release the likes of Whizz and Courier Crisis as opposed to Virtua Fighter 3, Shenmue or even PAL translations of Grandia and the long-promised-yet-ill-fated X-Men VS Street Fighter. *sigh*

Sonic Adventure was in the early planning stages as a Saturn project, though I doubt it would have been far along enough to make the console in time before Sega eventually ceased all development in favour of the Dreamcast - just look at how this also benefitted Shenmue. If you want a good indication of how Sonic Adventure might have looked on the Saturn (in a similar way to Fighters Megamix and Digital Dance Mix being "previews" for what gamers could have expected from Virtua Fighter 3, had it been released), try the Sonic World portion of Sonic Jam, as it's believed this originally formed part of a much larger stage that may have been one of at least two hub sections like those used in the final Dreamcast version, along with a proposed snow-themed area that most certainly became Ice Cap. Also, look carefully in some real time cut scenes and you might notice that a lower polygon Sonic model is used than in the main game, which although similar to that from Sonic R was actually proof that some code was lifted directly from the original Saturn work - this may or may not have been a third installment to the "Project Sonic" campaign.

Finally, hackers managed to find more similarities between Sonic Adventure and Sega's previous console than other Dreamcast titles, further highlighting its 32-bit roots. For those still not convinced (and I definitely recall mentioning this here before - sometimes you have to repeat yourself to get through with certain people!), a few stages in the final game look as if they were simply upgraded from levels that could have easily been possible on the Saturn. The first portion of Speed Highway and some tube-like links between world areas in particular come to mind, though as is all too often with these things much of what I say has yet to be proved in its entirety.

One last thing I'd like to say in this already lengthy rant is that Mark Maslowicz is just one person I have a serious interest in contacting regarding Saturn Virtua Fighter 3, though efforts to get anything out of the EMAP team have so far proved painfully fruitless... even if they did at least reveal that there is a strong possibility they might have seen something, despite the best efforts of Sega executives to keep any sightings of this game under wraps. I remain confident that one day we can find the right person to discuss this game, and I'm sure there are more people who would love to either play or just see this one in action - if not to end years of speculation as to its existence then to finally prove whether such an ambitious title really was in the reach of Sega's criminally underrated system. Then again, AM2 doesn't really need to show anything from VF3 as the footage of Shenmue it has already released speaks volumes about just how misguided Sony made the world regarding the Saturn's true power. After all, didn't Travellers Tales once confirm that Sonic R would only be possible on the PlayStation if the speed was dropped to 2-5fps, or Lobotomy claim they had Quake up and running (with all the Saturn version's effects intact) at a virtually unplayable frame rate? Now there are some figures you didn't hear Sony bragging about in a hurry!

 

Rumour goes that Lobotomy had Quake running at a solid 30 fps including split screen on the PSX actually.

 

I conducted an interview with Kevin Chung just last year, and in it he revealed a few things about post-Saturn titles that Lobotomy worked on prior to its closure (yet he wouldn't go into exactly why this highly talented group ceased to be, although he did confirm that most of the programmers and artists joined Crave). In relation to the long-rumoured PlayStation edition, there was a build that featured split-screen multiplayer and could run at 30fps in single player mode, but the polygon count and lighting effects had to be drastically reduced for this to be achieved. Also, did you know that Ezra Dreisbach had plans for a third DeathTank upgrade plus a brand new 3D version? Kevin's memory was a little hazy at times, which is understandable. However, the fact remains that as with most developers a few details regarding unreleased games have been obscured over the years - this appears to be just another such example.

 

well well well... seems Anthaemia put another fist on the table with the 2 last messages.

i think that honouring his name , exsegadev words must be taken really seriously.

About vf3 on saturn.. the only thing that confuses me is how is possible am2 in a "short" period of time already did shenmue for saturn and vf3 2 times!!!

woah,... that's a LOT OF WORK , considering how much the saturn hardware got to be studied...

and that a lot of am2 people interviewed always told by that time Yu-sama was involved mostly on shenmue..

 

*swiftly disguises into his alter-ego, futurenintendodevguything*

nice information guys, keep it comming

 

I found this a few years back - http://curmudgeongamer.com/article.php?story=20021008212903265

FTA:

Ezra: The most striking thing about the PSX port was how much faster the graphics hardware was than the Saturn. The initial scene after you just start the game is pretty complex. I think it ran 20 fps on the Saturn version. On the PSX it ran 30,but the actual rendering part could have been going 60 if the CPU calculations weren't holding it up. I don't know if it would have ever been possible to get it to really run 60, but at least there was the potential.

This is despite flying the flag for the Saturn in Sega Saturn Magazine interviews, which hints that either he was being overly polite or SSM tweaked the quotes a little. Travellers' Tales' claims that the PS would be unable to reproduce the reflections on Sonic R was also in SSM if I remember correctly... make of that what you will, but I've concluded that the PS was the technically superior 3D hardware and the TT quote must be bullshit, while the Saturn was obviously the best at 2D and IMHO had the best games.

 

PSX was really easy to work with, Saturn not.. we all know that...

 

This VF3 stuff should probably be made into its own thread.

 

Do you have a quote from AM2 stating 750k pps for Shenmue on the Saturn?

Do we have any proof exsegadev is an ex-Sega developer, other than his nickname?

Do we have any proof at all about any of all these tall tales you guys are throwing out like fact? Until you actually provide some proof of all these stories then they will never be more than that. I loved my Saturn, I got a lot of years of fun gameplay out of it, but I know for certain that it was not capable of any of the feats you are claiming here. If it was then the games would have been released, we'd have seen previews of them and we'd have seen more than just the Shenmue videos.

Do you have a link to this interview? Or any of the many interviews you have conducted, for us to read?

 

I'm not going to "out" myself as I have access to too much sensitive information right now, with my real job. I can prove it, but I'm not going to expose myself. I know some people will doubt me and that's fair enough, members here are smart enough to know the differnce between someone claiming to have Zelda III on the nes and someone recounting first hand backstory.

Ay Anthaemia;

Project Sonic was 3 games, Sonic R, Sonic Jam and Sonic 3D. It was a promotion at the end of the Saturns life to raise awareness of Sonic before the DC Sonic Adventure was released. Please can you go back and check your sources becuase your making a few easily correctable factual errors.
It's also clear you don't understand how the industry works by your Whizz and courier crisis comments. Learn the difference between 1st and 3rd party developers.

Lobotomy;
This information has never been made public, you have sources to confirm that this is true. Another undocumented Sega fuck up. Lobotomy wanted to be a 1.5 publisher for the Dreamcast and by all rights they should have been. They put a lot of money into a demo title that was described as "an underwater Ecco style game". Sega in their wisdom rejected it and this is what allegedy finished them off. Lost money on this project. Nice of Sega to stick two fingers up to someone that pushed the Saturn.

 

"Nice of Sega to stick two fingers up to someone that pushed the Saturn."

Sega as always.

 

well if lobotomy was a girl i think they'd have enjoyed two fingers, if not more.

 

hahahaha!

 

I was under the impression that Sonic 3D appeared before Project Sonic as this became Sega's quick replacement title following the cancellation of Xtreme, so how could this and not Sonic World have been the third part of that campaign? Also, there are performance figures for the likes of Shenmue and Virtua Fighter 3 floating around, though you only have to see the video that came with Shenmue II to realise AM2 was pushing the Saturn harder than anyone. The reason Yu Suzuki's team was able to push out so many incredible (yet criminally still unreleased) games in such a small time frame is because Shenmue's production can be traced back to 1994, while VF3 was being worked on in similar levels of secrecy between other Saturn projects, such as Fighters Megamix and Digital Dance Mix. As most people familiar with those two games and their connections to AM2's long-lost Saturn conversion will know, it would have been impossible for VF3 to exist on the Saturn without these "research" titles. FMM provided the graphics engine for the first revision of VF3, while Digital Dance Mix served as a test bed for the second revision's switching character model system, as later seen in the Aoi tech demo that was televised at such a ridiculous time barely anybody saw it - a move typical of Sega's Saturn-era promotion, in my opinion!

For the record, never have I said that my sources were absolutely correct - there's no doubt SSM was prone to bias (how else do you explain the 98% review score for Virtua Fighter 2?), and I'm sure that Lobotomy did indeed paper over certain truths that may have promoted Quake on rival formats. As for the revelation that Lobotomy pitched a game in order to become a 1.5 party Dreamcast developer, this goes against everything I've been told by former members regarding their post-Saturn work. One of their key designers once told me that he'd rather not disclose the exact reason for Lobotomy's closure, though it was hinted that a rejected game very personal to the hearts of all involved was to blame. Naturally, most people would have automatically assumed this to be DeathTank 3D or PowerSlave/Exhumed 2, the latter known to have been in development. For this to be another game nobody outside the business knew of is fascinating, but since my source wasn't at Lobotomy that late in the game (pun intended?) then I'm not really surprised he couldn't have been of more help in giving specific details. Of course, once again I'm not saying that your word is wrong. After all, why on earth would anyone in such a position leak information of that level to someone as low as myself? Finally, while I have conducted interviews with many people within the gaming industry relating to my favourite console and just some of its better-known lost games, these are being kept aside for something I'm currently working on. I can't guarantee anything new for someone like exsegadev or even promise that it will be 100% accurate, but since officially licensed publications are in the same proverbial boat then I'll be more than happy to allow the odd factual error to slip under my radar - checking every last detail would simply take longer than I'd ever have available!

EDIT: One quick search later and I found a GameFan article that reveals more about the underwater concept Lobotomy pitched to Sega - or didn't, as it seems!

"They have a number of games on the back burner, including PowerSlave 2 (a 3rd person Tomb Raider style adventure staring a young King Ramses), Aquaria (like Nights underwater, but with full 3D control) and a PC strategy game called Gothic. They are currently in the process of applying to become an N64 developer (Aquaria will be their first N64 title)..."

Anybody else heard of Aquaria before? I sure hadn't until I saw this, but as I said before we should never take anything journalists say as gospel. Let's see if exsegadev or another person with more knowledge can fill in the many blanks here, as my interest has well and truly been captured by the possibility of there being further amazing games lost because a few executives didn't truly believe in Lobotomy's skills and clear talent. Finally, does anyone have details of a game mentioned in another interview called Top Ramen? This was supposedly the first game that Lobotomy pitched after forming (many of its founding staff were former Nintendo programmers - another fact I didn't know until today), although it did produce an earlier tech demo that supposedly resembled Punch Out. Anyway, I'm going way off topic now so I'd better save any further discussion for a separate thread.

 

Sorry Exsegadev but I'm not buying that Sonic 3D belonged with the 'Project Sonic' moniker. We're talking late '96 here instead of the Autumn / Winter '97 releases Sonic Jam and Sonic R. It was indeed the quick replacement title of Sonic Xtreme. Andy Mee said so in an interview. Project Sonic was basicly three titles; Sonic Jam, Sonic R and an unknown title (which could've been Burning Rangers)
this is what Sonic Team said during an interview summer '97.

 

Although it's possible that Burning Rangers could have been the third game in the Project Sonic trilogy, screenshots from the original prototype version were being seen around the same period, which means it is highly likely BR was in development much earlier. For those who don't know, Sonic Team went and reworked much of BR for the final version, with some notable differences including a redesigned heads-up display, the newly-added voice navigation system and a split-screen battle mode that was removed at the very last minute due to similar issues that prevented this feature from appeared in NiGHTS - a game that BR shared its engine with. If anything, the third game of Project Sonic was almost definitely what led to Sonic World and later Sonic Adventure. Like other games I could think of (such as Shenmue and Virtua Fighter 3), this was in production under the highest of secrecy to prevent disappointment if it should fail to be completed - at least Sega got one thing right, even if the existence of such titles eventually leaked!

 

those titles leaked would be a miracle

 

A huge misconception that has grown over the years is games such as Saturn Virtua Fighter 3 and the prototype version of Shenmue are not within the reach of collectors, as it was only recently discovered through exsegadev's comments that the first of these examples was shown quite frequently to journalists and select in-house members, while the other was (quite generously) featured in video form as a bonus feature on the second installment in its later Dreamcast form. We all know that Sonic Xtreme - or at least the few scraps that existed of this mythical project - have been known to leak over the years, but to say that AM2 has tighter security than its US counterparts is foolish when you consider that the full version of Propeller Arena managed to escape somehow. While it's not exactly the most likely event to occur, I'm not giving up hope yet that one day we'll get to experience these "holy grails" and a few others I could think of. Biohazard 2 in its prototype form is definitely in the hands of someone with the ability to release this game into the public domain, though as with so many other cancelled titles it's more a question of why this doesn't happen as opposed to when. I guess that some people would rather save their own backs, respect the wishes of others or simply not cave in to demand, and that's a part of life you simply have to accept - I'd rather not start an argument regarding the subject of hoarding, but the quote "knowledge is power" says everything that needs to be said, in my opinion! I'm sure a few regulars here know of someone or might even be personally responsible, though again that's not for me to say...

 

hey, some of us might even play dumb! like that one little snes peripheral that sneaks at night out of the closet