Why do people choose not to release rare items?

Discussion in 'Rare and Obscure Gaming' started by slapducky, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. CoinCollector

    CoinCollector Spirited Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    5
    Yeah, like everyone's saying, money is most of the trouble - it would be extremely difficult to spend, say, $15,000 on Conker and then throw away a lot of it by releasing the game online. Extremely noble, mind you, but difficult. Especially knowing that there have to be other copies out there, at the very least in the Rareware archives.

    Unless you're a billionaire like FamilyGuy said. Really, it's just a matter of time until a person comes along who is both rich and interested in games preservation. Someone like that could sweep through the proto community and set a lot of stuff straight. So that's one of the incentives in the back of my head to succeed in life - if money ever becomes no problem for me, there's no doubt I'd come back here and rescue a few prototype games. ;)

    Do we know what typically happens to archives when companies shut down? Do they get sold at auction, or do employees split it up and take it home for fun? In Acclaim's case, at least part of it was auctioned off since ASSEMbler got those data tapes.
     
  2. Evotistical

    Evotistical Robust Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    261
    Likes Received:
    4
    Usually collectors of rare games are actively buying all the time. This means they have to buy fakes, and sometimes pay for items at prices well above real worth. If they don't make it a business, they might not be able to afford to collect in the first place. I have lots of protos and rare items that I choose not to share, just because of the back lash. Some people will never know what I have. I actively use and play most of them, but hey.. I owe nobody anything. I have released some roms anon, but only for my parts of collections that have obscurity, and at the sellers request for me to dump and release.

    After collecting protos/rare games for years I have a really cool message(your mileage may vary); about 50% are questionably fake, 60% buyers remorse, about 75% of the rare differences are negligible, and about 90% of unreleased games suck(play-ability wise)...because they are either incomplete, or thats why they are unreleased. The hype before you buy it, and the history is the real high.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  3. RetroSwim

    RetroSwim <B>Site Supporter 2013</B><BR><B>Site Supporter 20

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    26
    That aspect I understand, but if you were interested enough in the history of games to specifically seek out unreleased and incomplete games, why would you ever want to resell it, unless your primary goal is profiteering?
     
  4. Borman

    Borman Digital Games Curator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    9,543
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Ive made many posts on this subject, one relatively recently :
    http://ptoponline.com/?p=945

    Honestly, Conker and PD betas could be the last games I publicly release at this point, at least without prior permission.

    Here are the facts. The Internet makes for a terrible permanent solution for prototypes. Temporary sure, but that is due to nothing better existing. Copyright issues are huge. Money issues are huge (Museums don't get all of their items for free, why should the Internet?). We have seen builds get altered time and time again, that is not archiving, that is just people wanting to have stuff and to play them.

    And no, other copies do not have to be "out there." Data is lost often, likely on a daily basis. If you think for a minute that just because they are big companies that data cannot be lost, you are lying to yourself.

    I actually have an academic presentation of prototype preservation on Friday, with the goal of creating a legitimate, legal system for prototype archiving.



    Many things can happen, not the least of which is that things are thrown in the trash and lost forever. It happens, and it happens a lot. Employees who take stuff, which mind you are great sources, are still likely breaking the law by stealing the items. And even if they get auctioned off, there are huge issues to conquer from there. Why haven't the data tapes been examined? The fact is that it is much more difficult.

    Bottom line, some people will agree with me, but more of you will think I am being an asshole. That is fine. But the current system is a terrible system of archival, and it is getting to be time where real professionals step in and do this right, and I hope to be there at the front of the pack doing so.

    Edit :


    Because even the biggest and best archives in the world can't archive everything. There are space limits. There is the cost of maintaining the collection. It's a lot of work. I personally dump things or sell them so that the money can be spent on other data to make sure it doesn't disappear. Even the best collections in the world place a higher value on specific items, so when space or money is limited, things have to go.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  5. atreyu187

    atreyu187 Intrepid Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    16
    I prefer to share my stuff as it is not leaving my hands so the value maybe going down means jack to me. I have already released four betas this year alone with more to come.
     
  6. Subcritical-Strike

    Subcritical-Strike Gutsy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    2
    I hear ya bro


    When the new Xbox comes out I intent on unleashing a ton of alpha and pre alpha build that are NOT public that are full game builds and not xbla games. Some unreleased! So I intent on opening the gates of hell!

    ....Xbox 360 builds
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  7. ShovelThumb

    ShovelThumb Gutsy Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2010
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    37
    Great post. No need to read rest of thread..
     
  8. Bramsworth

    Bramsworth Well Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,746
    Likes Received:
    359
    I can understand why the internet is a flawed way of preserving, but it seems like it would beat anything else regardless. I'm interested in knowing what your presentation will cover, Borman. The only other way I can imagine stuff being "preserved" so to speak besides distribution on the net is an official archive foundation or something like that, if you want to go all legal about it. But that seems flawed in the fact that it's one building with the proto contained within. Not much different than stuff being kept in company archives at the moment. If any foundation that came to be archived protos, I'd hope they'd share them online all the same because else it's very limited system. Proto is kept one place, you have to live nearby to get a chance to see it, and you're lucky if you get any personal time with it, let alone people getting to hack in and find things if this were somewhere that were keeping the stuff specifically confined within their building only.

    I have a hard time wording this since I don't even fully know what I think about this myself. I'm very interested to see what your legal way of doing things involves.
     
  9. Borman

    Borman Digital Games Curator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    9,543
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Well Im still working on the idea of a permanent archive, which is why I will be talking to some people smarter than I about it :p One building of professionals dedicated to preservation is a ton better than the current method (internally). And the fact that much of what we do now, externally, is likely illegal in some way shape or form, means that it isn't ideal, despite some gamers thinking that it is. Gamers feel entitled to play everything and do whatever they want, and that mindset needs to change too. The fact is that many opportunities will present themselves that would not otherwise exist if it is done in a legal, documented process.

    It won't be an easy road. I won't have an answer for you tomorrow if I pursue it. I won't have an answer for you 4 years from now either if I go through with a PhD regarding the subject either, but at that point it would obviously be researched.

    My thoughts right now are fairly basic. You need at least three steps in making game preservation a real deal. First, you need developers to have a permanent system in place. Some companies are better about it than others, and there are some solutions that certainly work to some extent currently. Second, you will need some sort of institution in place to actually archive the data in a way that is acceptable to outside companies. This could perhaps be the most difficult, but some institutions have moved forward in a more general "Archiving games" sense. Third, you need a museum and some way to actually display the data, as gaming is about interactivity. Obviously each step is far more complicated than a simple sentence, and requires much more work, but that is my basic plan on "where do I start?"

    One of the issues is that preserving prototypes goes beyond just software. Hardware is involved too, prototype hardware or not. It's complicated hah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  10. Bramsworth

    Bramsworth Well Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,746
    Likes Received:
    359
    Sure is :) I'd fully embrace something legal if it meant companies trusting the public and opening up the possibilities of access to more than anyone can dream of, though. How any company will be convinced to do so would be interesting.

    Hurts to think though that by the time any of that could possibly be implemented into a generally accepted thing that companies do, a lot of proto material from the 8bit to 64 bit era might be gone due to bitrot and general negligence in their archival at their respective companies. Atari protos keep popping up that surprise me they've lasted this long, but I still have low hopes.
     
  11. GodofHardcore

    GodofHardcore Paragon of the Forum *

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    11,821
    Likes Received:
    454
    Some people are selfish Assholes who should be robbed
     
  12. Unknown-Organization

    Unknown-Organization <B>Site Supporter 2014</B>

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    6
    Critical-Strike
    I don't understand what you mean as you got me confused ?

    So when XBOX720 is release... as you will plan to leak tons of unfinished XBOX360 builds ? That is good, I have got one alpha build which only on XBOX360 platform is Project Gotham Racing 4.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  13. Subcritical-Strike

    Subcritical-Strike Gutsy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    2
    more like "Share"
     
  14. Borman

    Borman Digital Games Curator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    9,543
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Yep, which is a point I am sure to raise, with an example of some fun and exciting bit rot for the smart doctors to get their hands on :p Thats why Im all for continuing what is going on as a stop-gap measure, but I still dont think that it is a permanent solution. First step though is to raise awareness and open the discussion about why games matter in the first place. We all know why, but it is time for others to see it too.
     
  15. CoinCollector

    CoinCollector Spirited Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2008
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    5
    Fascinating... I like the sound of your plans so far! Best of luck with the presentation. (talking to normal grown-ups about video games, eek!)
     
  16. HEX1GON

    HEX1GON FREEZE! Scumbag

    Joined:
    May 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,916
    Likes Received:
    837
    Borman knows his shit :)

    Which reminds me, I'll throw a donation at the Rare stuff soon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  17. APE

    APE Site Supporter 2015

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,416
    Likes Received:
    138
    The few things I've released have been at 100% cost to me but not a single one of them was >$50USD either. XBox Live beta disc with ReVolt? $25USD. OPM demo disc with the Half-Life addon? IIRC it was about $15 but it took me months to track down the correct issue of the correct magazine. I've also bought a few kiosk demo discs and released them and while they're not as amazing as RE1.5 or a possible proto of Zelda for the N64DD there is always a small group of people who enjoy what I've found and put out.

    I'd rather than 100 $100 betas released than 1 $1000 beta anyway. If the RE1.5 release is any indication the high priced betas are largely incomplete and buggy making them less interesting than a debug mode on a mostly complete game. At least IMO.
     
  18. Meer

    Meer Spirited Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    10
    Just because people want something, they are not entitled to anything. As others have stated, people put their money and time into these things. To go out of the way for people who are usually over-opinionated, ungrateful dolts kind of just makes you not want to do nothing. Of course there are more positive and thankful people out there, the few rude people can ruin something for others.


    Very informal post, thanks for this. It's nice to hear information coming from people such as yourself who have established themselves in these communities. :tears_of_joy:
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  19. Evotistical

    Evotistical Robust Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    261
    Likes Received:
    4
    Why don't you be the unselfish hero and rescue everything? Isn't it selfish to covet another persons property? Why do you wish harm on others because of they're actions that physically hurt no-one?


    BTW: I'm not targeting you, I am only addressing the mentality.

    I usually donate what I can to the community when it doesn't hurt my family life, or compromise my collection. I have to say I haven't much given to this site yet. It may come soon though...
    I have lots of web space avail. if you need to host files or mirror. We will have to change the filenames though:concern:. example file "75629134.zip"
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  20. Borman

    Borman Digital Games Curator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    9,543
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Hosting was never an issue though. The fact is that if no one (or few people) downloads something, and mirrors start to go down, there is a possibility for files to disappear, especially in their original state. Even with sites like ISOZone around, I know for a fact that people uploading some of the stuff I have helped release have removed files, altered them, and all that.

    It's not about attention in the "OMGZ look what I have," like many detractors like to say, but rather that having my name attached to something, as risky as it can be, creates a source, a partial line of how the files got online, so hopefully things can be traced back when questions arise. I look at people trying to answer questions about the games I release, and how wrong their answers were, and I just shake my head, because not only were the releases altered, but the information is now wrong, which is exactly what archiving isn't.

    I'm not going to pretend like I have all the answers now. People like Frank and drx know certain things that I certainly don't, having been in this hobby for longer than I. But that is what research is about.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
sonicdude10
Draft saved Draft deleted
Insert every image as a...
  1.  0%

Share This Page