Your stance on emulation

He said something about using a stunt race fx cart as the donor cart as it contains most of the chips needed. Thats why im sending him my original wonder project J cart to hack as it saves me trying to find a compatible matching cart.

He even had a lovely label printed for it. I knew it was a pirate yet i wanted to own it so bad hehe.

 

I thought SNES games such as Stunt Race FX and especially Star Fox2 (beta) would carry special compatibility codes/CRC to not match identical donor carts.. I guess they didn't care for such details back in the day!

Amazing nevertheless, how much did it cost you?I might be interested in one.

 

Well i havent got a starfox 2 yet as the one we were playing was hi own that he brought to the games meet.

He sold one on ebay a while back & it went for £31 but it was for a pal machine so its no good to me as i have a sfc.

Before he can make me one i need to find a japanese copy of stunt race fx.

My copy of wonder project J he is modifying for me im paying him £40 to cover his time & materials. Its way beyond my skill level with the soldering & eprom programming ect...

 

In general I am very much against emulators for these reasons:

(1) Emulation leads to piracy. I recognise emulators can have their use in development and debugging of games. Calpis put it best: "one worker bee to every few thousand leeches". Although I estimate the ratio leeches to be way higher.

(2) Emulation is not preservation. Emulation gives the wrong impression on how a game actually looked and played. We can even see it today on the PS3 where scaling already degrades the original pictures. The same goes with the emulation of classic 80s arcade games on PC monitors that look "too clean" and are often viewed with an incorrect aspect ratio and refresh rate. It is historically incorrect and does not convey the game as the designers wanted you to play it.

(3) Preservation is not limited to creating backup images. True preservation is about maintaining and restoring orginal media, instructions and packaging. Unlike collectors of paintings and cars, video game collectors have very little skill or knowledge on preservation of games. Things like humidity/temperature/lighting storage conditions often get no consideration of self-proclaimed "preservers".

(4) The spreading of backup images for use with emulators (or even real hardware) does not contribute to preservation. Besides the concerns already pointed out in (2), the widespread availability of images has only led to the modification of images so they would work with emulators or run on region/copy-restricted hardware. Because of this you can no longer trust any image you find to be a proper backup.

(5) Emulators and their associated piracy are hurting the used market economy. If a game is a free download people will not pay for it. It's really that simple. Many times the argument is made that the orginal publishers are not making money anymore from an old Famicom game so there's no harm done. This is completely false. Emulators and pirated images have devaluated old games a lot. This hurts shops that sell used software and even Average Joe just selling his old games on eBay to redeem part of his original purchase.

(6) Emulators are now also widely used by original copyright holders to resell old games. Although they are within their rights to do so, point 2 applies, and even more so on consoles I might add. Just look at the dreadful quality of the emulation on Mega Drive Virtual Console games and the Taito Memories collections on PS2. It screams low budget production values. It also begs the question: why not do a remake of the game instead of going the inferior emulation route? This may be wishful thinking. But think of this: if emulation was possible on the Super Famicom, do you think Nintendo would have made Super Mario All-Stars?

(7) Emulation kills original homebrew. When consoles got more powerful over the years it became possible to run emulation on them. This resulted in the death of original homebrew. On PSP, we see endless ports of emulators being done but you'll be hard pressed to find a true homebrew game.

 

Still, it's that or nothing ! I'd go with the slightly off settings than nothing at all.

Are you talking about the Wii virtual console? I find that to have perfect Mega Drive Emulation and as for that Taito port well that was just a piss poor lazy port. Nothing to do with the use of emulation. Saturn runs emulation solmetimes of a few Mega Drive games which all run perfectly. Just depends on how much work you put in to it.

Come on, 80% of console homebrew stuff is crap and you know it! Fine, it's good for a home coder but as a game goes most of the time they aren't worth wasting a CD on. Out of the 100's of home brew games I've played only a hand full are what I'd call good games.

Emulation is a way to play and enjoy what you normally wouldn't be able to. Yeah, it hurts the market and so on but do you really think it hurts them so much that they are going to be put out of business? I think not

Yakumo

 

It sounds like Jeilong is an RIAA and MPAA supporter, or a representive for them, or some shite like that. Since if it hadn´t been for emulators , then I wouldn´t have fallen in love with many machines from the past.

 

Just like marijuana is cited to be the "gateway" drug. Most people I know who use emulators already have the games phsyically and just don't want to bother to get out the console/wire it up again. However, it is indeed all to easy to download "just one more game" because it's so easy.

Then how come the value of "retro" games have increased over the last decade? I know quite a few vintage game stores around that are doing quite well.
Also, remember although we might think everyone and their dog knows about emulation, most of the millions that bought game consoles don't even know what emulation is.

Not that original homebrew was worth playing anyway (in most cases) ;-) (I know some great stuff is out there but I've already played tetris and pong enough :-()
I don't think emulation kills homebrew - for every programmer porting an emulator/coding from scratch, there's a bunch that see more technical challenges and opportunity for expression in making their own homebrew.

Marshall

 

if emulation was so 'bad', then nintendo and other companies wouldn't capitalize on it.

 

x

 

This is going to be the weirdest of responses to this particular thread so bare with me to the bitter end please.

I used to work in the music industry and I freely admit to being completely against copyright theft & piracy. Frankly, I find the endless ripping off of musicians and original artists by would-be charlatans completely goes against every ethical fibre of my body.

When I hear supposed new bands churning out material I know was produced by groups and musicians a few decades previous, but because of trends these artists are gaining recognition for copying, it makes me sick.

My daughter listens to a huge variety of material because she was brought up that way. She appreciates music for what it truly is. It's a gift and not something to just be taken for granted.

In the years I worked in the music business I watched some amazingly talented artists completely fail to get any recognition and get dumped by an industry based around the fastest, brightest, most profitable stars rather than those who had the most potential. Independent record labels have a totally different agenda and they nurture the talent in their artists and it is like family. They take a hit on a project, they take it on the chin because they believe in the music and it is not just a product.

Now I come to the crux of this particular thread.

Almost a year ago I asked a very similar question in a completely different forum. My stance remains firmly set against copyright theft, but I listened to the plethora of reponses in favour of emulation, hacking and the like with growing interest & appreciation of what those responding were trying to convey.

My stance has always been very firm. No! No to everything that meant the original producer / artist or originator being ripped off by people unwilling to accept that the material they loved on one particular console is no longer available on their current unit. Time marches on!

However, my stance softened when I examined my own feelings on the matter.

In most instances record companies do their level best to ensure that successful material is made available on a multitude of formats so that a wider audience can enjoy that material. Music I listened to in my teens is still available today on CD and I am certain it will be tomorrow on whatever format is expressing the market drive. So, it is possible to legally obtain and enjoy the Rolling Stones for 40+ years if you so desire.

What the software industry is failing to do is appreciate the market desire. There is an ever increasing trend towards retro gaming. Whilst striving to feed the hungry mouths of the next best & biggest thing, it is plainly obvious that frankly a vast number of gaming officinados would like the software industry to act in similar manner to the music industry and preserve what is and had always been available. Make it available for future gamers etc.

Look at the material that exists and the market place available - both are huge.

My view is that we (the gaming community) are being provided in many instances with poorly ported / emulated and rehashed versions of the original.

If a music executive offered me a second rate AC/DC I'd tell him to shove it up his arse! If they assumed Chesney Hawks was rock enough to handle Angus Young, they'd be totally wrong! Some things are unique and should be treated as such. Don't screw around with something that can't be copied.

The reason these things exist is to preserve a culture that is being badly preserved by those who strive to protect it. The industry itself is described as being one of the fastest growing markets in the world. It is clearly shifting from back burner to front stage and with that in mind it is perhaps time that the main players in the software business re examined the assests in it's arsenal.

I do not advocate copyright theft. That only leads to the very developers we admire being cut out of the financial loop and being left in the position where they can no longer afford to produce material.

What I do think however is that if some executive somewhere tried to tell me that as of tomorrow The Rolling Stones where not going to be made available on any new format, I'd be utterly pissed off at the futility of the music industry to embrace all it could to preserve what it had for future generations.

Why is this such a difficult concept for software producers to grasp? They have something that other people admire and enjoy. Do something far more solid to ensure it doesn't get lost or emulated by others (mostly genuine fans) who would rather see the real thing maintained.

My 2c worth. I hope it makes sense.

 

If the game is obselete and you really cannot find it any other way, then yeah I am OK with it. But if you are just building an arcade cab with a zillion emulated games from the 1980s and 1990s to save money, then you are going to burn in hell

 

is there some sort of limit to the copyright? Like if all of the band members are dead, why is it so bad if a current band plays the old music, so long as they give credit and whatnot, like a tribute. or are you against that as well? I dont really care if the wife or son or other inheritor of a great musician does not receive royalties that they did not earn, if the great musician earned it and he is dead.

 

x

 

Too right ! Just like myself. I own many of the games used on Emulators but for most of the time I just use the emulation unless I want to play a few games on the same system, then I will set it up.

Yakumo

 

in the UK copyright is limited to 70 years after the author's death.

I can't stop complaining enough about the lack of Panzer Dragoon Saga and many other Saturn titles on other systems.

And this is a pitty.

A game like AZEL (Panzer dragoon RPG) [using japanese title] is the sort of game that newer players will NEVER experience if they don't buy a Saturn.

New gamers won't buy a Saturn, because 1)they don't know what the hell a Saturn is or 2)they can't afford to 'support' another console besides their current-gen one or be able to track down the game and pay ridiculus amounts of money for it.

Emulation is the golden line in these situations. It makes the softwares of yesterday accessible to today's generation of gamers, without them having to dive too deep into acquiring new hardware etc.

 

As I said, my stance has "softened" on whether emulation is a good thing or not. I finally had to conceed my anti-emulation stance when I considered the plethora of officially ported games by the likes of Sega etc. I also stumbled across some unofficial remakes of some 8bit software I hadn't played in years and knew I'd never find elsewhere. In trying them I was somewhat disappointed in the amateur manner they had been put together in most instances, but 3 or 4 of the titles I looked at were as close to the original as you could imagine - amazing!

Just for the record, I tried them out of curiosity and part research at what all the fuss was about and really what my PC was capable of - he says not wishing to sound like Pete Townsend!

If legitimate re-workings of the games exist then I do not see the point in others attempting to effectively rip off the originator. It is akin in my view to downloading MP3 of your favourite artists and not paying them. With my own eyes, first hand I saw some wonderful artists axed from a particular label because of a tiny downwards blip on a chart. It is a business and as a business it is ruthless.

There, see I know there is going to be a huge debate about this, but I will open your eyes a bit to the effect.

It isn't very well known, but until recently ALL sectors across the globe were reporting massive down turns in sales of music. This was partly due to a shift in purchasing. Albums sales were up, but single sales dropped dramatically. What had previously been the bread and butter of the industry disappeared almost overnight. The buying public really were not purchasing at the same level as previously across ANY sectors. A down turn meant an immediate tightening of financial out goings for the vast majority of record labels. The immediate effect, dump any artists not really pulling their weight, reign in the A&R (scouts used to find new talent), cut back on various promotions, hit specific markets with very genre specific material. Lastly, stick to low-cost artists.

Instead of having your long term contracted groups, the bands you perhaps loved and followed throughout their career being nurtured through their 5th album, which is taking them a bit longer as they haven't toured for 3 years and the band are now in their 30's got kids etc etc etc. Dump them and go for wannabies. Trust me, new artists are cheaper as they are generally less demanding, have that "whatever you say boss" wide eyed appeal. There's less of the "Can you send my snare drum over from America to the recording studio in Amsterdam please as it has a particular snap to it". Now it's "Thanks for your 5min in the recording studio, thank you and now we will get the producer to work his magic and we'll let you hear what your single will sound like in a few days time..."

Labels go for artists that can be shaped & controlled by producers, easily manipulated by the label and look good on TV.

These are just the faces selling you music, like the packaging on a can of coke. In many instances these artists are produced and produced again, electronically manufactured and pumped through gadgets galore so when it comes to live performance they suck. They produce a few singles or one or perhaps two albums and if they don't capture the percentage, they are gone. No debate, it's see ya!

The material is produced like battery hen farm. Look at the current trend, read the market, hire specific producers currently catching 'that sound' or 'that scene' and push out a golden egg. Reap the reward of having artists (I use the term loosely) who are pliable enough to provide the record label with a face and a voice.

How can you admire that?

So if you are ever wondering what precisely is the effect of copyright theft it is this...the manufacturers tighten their belts, kill of the decent stuff and give us the shit that gives them the highest return. Simple as that.

I've seen arguement after arguement in the last few years online from various gamers saying precisely that.

See, my stance is still anti-piracy as frankly it ruins it for everyone, us included. However, the reality is that piracy occurs. It happens because people want something they state they cannot afford or legally obtain.

It does however sadden me greatly that many of the most talented hackers etc are really just frustrated games developers. Locked out of producing their own damned fine and amazing titles because of the manner in which the gaming industry seeks to control every aspect of their industry. It is like an elite, exclusive club and unless you are a fully paid up and acceptable member then there is no opportunity to enter it.

Oh, before anyone asks, no I wasn't sacked from the music business, I decided to leave of my own free will.

I know I have probably taken this off topic and apologise.

Barcode explained it best

"Emulation is the golden line in these situations. It makes the softwares of yesterday accessible to today's generation of gamers, without them having to dive too deep into acquiring new hardware etc".

It's surely a balancing act for the software industry. A handful of people playing emulated titles poses no threat as those titles are no longer available. They are not seeing a downturn in sales on old games being ported. What IS happening however is an un-seen effect, which is that copyright theft is occuring each time this happens.

I often wonder whether the producers of the original titles are somewhat pleased that a game they produced back in the 80's still has a following or whether they are sick fed up of not getting any payment in royalties from sales (like the music industry). They only earn anything from the title as long as the console remains current. Take their title of the shelf and they are paid nothing.

To be fair I think this is a massive failing on the part of the games industry. They are literally sitting on a goldmine and if others are coming in and stealing that gold from under their noses you can hardly blame those pilfering.

I do not condone it, but in the last year of looking at this more closely I can certainly understand why it is happening, I understand the clear, concise and very articulate arguement FOR emulation being put forward by the gaming community and in many instances I accept those comments and agree!

That said, I would like the industry to make the necessary steps in protecting their assets and ensuring that public demand is viewed with healthy interest rather than scepticism. After all the majority of gamers are in admiration of the material they remember from their early gaming years (or are discovering for the first time). The industry is sadly responding to this interest too slowly and leaving themselves open to abuse.

One last comment: I have an Amstrad CPC 464. It is a 64k (actually, once you take off the OS it drops to about 48k) reads tapes and dates back some 20+ years. I have owned it from new and it is in great condition. I have never needed to do much in the way of maintenance on it and it still reads cassettes.

I have an Xbox with 40+ games (all original) and I have paid hundreds through the last few years. It is 2 years old and I recently had to replace the console due to the DVDrom failing.

Perhaps the software industry should also turn their attention to a hidden factor in many copyright & emulation situations. For many serious & genuinely addicted gamers, the thought of a games console dying on them and leaving them with 40+ legal, paid up and original titles they love to bits is a nightmare! Currently you can obtain a new Xbox, but what happens in 5 years time? Given that I am onto my 3rd Xbox in the time they have been on the market, an option for many devoted gamers is emulation to avoid damaging or losing the legally obtain software they already own.

When I became a gamer I did not expect that when I purchased software that my enjoyment of that software would come with a time limit of just how long the bloody console would last!

Developers have to jump through the hoops put in place by the console manufacturer, but the games industry should put much more effort into ensuring that the product lasts longer that 2 years!

 

Parris: the record companies were too late, with releasing their artists as MP3 downloads (pay downloads we can call them now). Mute was an independant label untill last year, if I remember correct, since it was bought by EMI, and that pissed me off. Since Mute really treated their bands with goodness, and all. But now EMI has just a Depeche Mode set only for Itunes, and that made me angry. I would rather have a Depeche Mode music set, on CD (and etc.) than having them on AAC files. And what make matters worse, some people tried in a forum thread pointing a finger at the pirates. But again, it isn´t the pirates fault. It is the companies own fault. And no I don´t like DM now adays. But that is a completely different matter why.

But still, I have always felt, that I stood with one foot in the legal direction, and one in the illegal direction. Because of political views. So I am biased, alot. But anyway, it doesn´t change my opinion either way.

 

Loads of UK indie bands were on Mute. I remember he very first Mute lable I got or more like, was given. It was The Circus by Erasure. Still have that somewhere in the lost back at my parents place. I did download the MP3 mind you so I guess I'm a pirate :evil:

Anyway, back on topic. If it wasn't for emulation we wouldn't be able to see the talents of many Cracktro or scenedemo programmers. These guys and Gals can pull of some amazing stuff that game companies never bother with. So for them I'm extremely grateful to emulation. Ever seen a Sharp X68000 attempt FMV?

Yakumo

 

those words are true.

 

I'll add this bit.

There have been quite a few obscure JP games I bought once I test-played the ROM for 5 minutes, and decided it was worth getting.

Usually, I make a want list and get the games regardless. A couple end on the "on the fence" spectrum, and it's these games I test briefly to decide if it's worth buying. More times than not, I end up buying.

I think that's an acceptable usage of ROMs, never less a very wise one.